Eddie Jones' Phase 2 (Backs)

[Banquo]

The Lions series really sharpens the mind about the size of the test ahead. To stand a chance against NZ we may need to start taking some risks on players who have intelligence, the basic skillset and high upside. Whether this can be done before 2019 is another question.

For me there are four buckets...

Fit to face NZ...

Ford
JJ
Manu
Daly
Watson
Te'o (from the bench)
May

Good players, need specific work

Youngs - consistency
Farrell - Needs to play 12 and add a running game
Nowell - best at 15

Risks with the right skillset...

Maunder
Townsend
Slade
Mallinder
Marchant
Lozowski (at 15)
Cokasinga
Solomona

Experienced but not good enough...

Care
Brown

Looking at that, the big problems are 9, 12 and 15. The start of next season will be key for the players competing in those positions.


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On Faz, the one thing its very hard to 'add' is a running game imo. I've also not given up on Freddie Burns!

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, I'm not sure any of a) Farrell adding a running game b) Nowell learning (again) to play fullback or c) Youngs learning to pass are that achievable if they're not happening by now, though I still think Nowell could be more effective there than at 15.

[Stom]

On Faz, the one thing its very hard to 'add' is a running game imo. I've also not given up on Freddie Burns!

Oh aye. I'm a big fan of Burns. He's a great 10, imo. If he can play some consistent and good rugby for Bath, then he'll be right back in the mix.

[Puja]

The Lions series really sharpens the mind about the size of the test ahead. To stand a chance against NZ we may need to start taking some risks on players who have intelligence, the basic skillset and high upside. Whether this can be done before 2019 is another question.

I don't think this Lions series really requires that much in the way of panic stations. They're a good side; we know that. They're capable of putting away a side playing Gatball; we also knew that. They're not insuperable ubermensch; hopefully we knew that too.

I don't think there is any need for drastic action simply because a side who plays in a completely different way to us, who use some of our players, but not some of the key ones to how we play, are making a bit of a hash of playing NZ.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I agree. While I don't necessarily think we'd beat NZ right now, I don't think we need to be making panic decisions.

If anything, I think it's a bonus for our Lions players to get some experience of playing against them and learn some useful lessons.

[Oakboy]

Ive just realised ive put Manu in a "fit" bucket but hopefully you know what i mean...!


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Unfortunately, whilst Tuilagi is definitely good enough if fit, I'd bet against him ever being so consistently over a long enough period to get back into serious consideration. I hope I'm wrong because he could be the ultimate bench presence.

[Oakboy]

I agree. While I don't necessarily think we'd beat NZ right now, I don't think we need to be making panic decisions.

If anything, I think it's a bonus for our Lions players to get some experience of playing against them and learn some useful lessons.

Without going over old 'Lions ground', I think any experience under Gatland will not be positive (compared with games under Jones).

[fivepointer]

I dunno, playing NZ in NZ is certainly an experience. It should at least inform the players what the standards are that they need to attain. You can still learn a lot in a losing cause.

[jngf]

Regarding Daly, Nowell and Watson - all three are really good and versitile footballers - but for me whilst (at least) Daly and Watson are quick, none of the three have the out and out gas to be the ideal finishers on the wings - and think fullback is where any of them could have the most impact long term ( though Daly also convinces as a back up 13 option and Nowell does go looking for work - Ashton style - on the wing and in that respect makes up for a comparative lack of pace).

For me Yarde, May,Solomona and Wade (were Eddie to pick him ) are the out and out finishers that I would like to see on the wings.

[Mikey Brown]

Watson and Daly aren't quick enough?!?!

[Timbo]

Yeah, not sure about that. I'm pretty sure I've heard Anthony Watson lay claim to something like a 10.8 100m pb before. How much quicker do we need?

[bitts]

Yeah, not sure about that. I'm pretty sure I've heard Anthony Watson lay claim to something like a 10.8 100m pb before. How much quicker do we need?

Yeah, there is a big difference between not being as quick as Ioane and not being quick enough for a test wing.

Probably the only EQP players who could come close are May and Wade over a short distance

[Banquo]

Regarding Daly, Nowell and Watson - all three are really good and versitile footballers - but for me whilst (at least) Daly and Watson are quick, none of the three have the out and out gas to be the ideal finishers on the wings - and think fullback is where any of them could have the most impact long term ( though Daly also convinces as a back up 13 option and Nowell does go looking for work - Ashton style - on the wing and in that respect makes up for a comparative lack of pace).

For me Yarde, May,Solomona and Wade (were Eddie to pick him ) are the out and out finishers that I would like to see on the wings.

Yes they are, and yes they are finishers at international level....you only have to see the tries they have scored at.....international level.

[6.5]

Yeah, I'm not sure any of a) Farrell adding a running game b) Nowell learning (again) to play fullback or c) Youngs learning to pass are that achievable if they're not happening by now, though I still think Nowell could be more effective there than at 15.

You yourself should know that its never too late to add elements to your game and improve!

My point about those three is that they are all good internationals in isolation (in fact they have all been in Lions test squads) but they all have weaknesses which can expose them at the highest level of the game.

I think all three have their merits and all three can play a part in a world beating England side with the right players around them - but are the good enough players for us to build around their weaknesses?


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[6.5]

The Lions series really sharpens the mind about the size of the test ahead. To stand a chance against NZ we may need to start taking some risks on players who have intelligence, the basic skillset and high upside. Whether this can be done before 2019 is another question.

I don't think this Lions series really requires that much in the way of panic stations. They're a good side; we know that. They're capable of putting away a side playing Gatball; we also knew that. They're not insuperable ubermensch; hopefully we knew that too.

I don't think there is any need for drastic action simply because a side who plays in a completely different way to us, who use some of our players, but not some of the key ones to how we play, are making a bit of a hash of playing NZ.

Puja

Insuperable ubermensch, no, but not miles off...

Im not suggesting drastic action - im suggesting that we can continue to improve on the incumbents at 9, 12 and 15 and think that considering that fact in the context of playing the ABs sharpens the mind re the right kind of rounded players that we need to do that. I imagine Eddies thinking along the same lines.


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[TheNomad]

Regarding Daly, Nowell and Watson - all three are really good and versitile footballers - but for me whilst (at least) Daly and Watson are quick, none of the three have the out and out gas to be the ideal finishers on the wings - and think fullback is where any of them could have the most impact long term ( though Daly also convinces as a back up 13 option and Nowell does go looking for work - Ashton style - on the wing and in that respect makes up for a comparative lack of pace).

For me Yarde, May,Solomona and Wade (were Eddie to pick him ) are the out and out finishers that I would like to see on the wings.

Thankfully others have already stepped in, as some of those statements are obviously wrong - not least trying to reinforce a bizarre statement about Daly and Watson lacking pace (watch Ioane and Daly at full speed - they're basically the same) by suggesting Yarde is the right guy. Seriously that's crazy.

Wade, rightly or wrongly just won't get the nod because of his size. I'll back Eddie (and others) judgement on that one. I think the pool of players with a genuinely exciting ceiling in the back three is currently: Watson, Daly, Solomona and May, with Nowell currently ahead of some of them, but with potential flaws that could limit his potential. Over the next few years I'd hope at least one more player comes into the mix, and for our sake I hope it's a 15.

But back to the main point - Daly and Watson not quick? Absolutely mental. Is it even controversial to say they're the quickest players in the Lions squad?

[Scrumhead]

Regarding Daly, Nowell and Watson - all three are really good and versitile footballers - but for me whilst (at least) Daly and Watson are quick, none of the three have the out and out gas to be the ideal finishers on the wings - and think fullback is where any of them could have the most impact long term ( though Daly also convinces as a back up 13 option and Nowell does go looking for work - Ashton style - on the wing and in that respect makes up for a comparative lack of pace).

For me Yarde, May,Solomona and Wade (were Eddie to pick him ) are the out and out finishers that I would like to see on the wings.

Thankfully others have already stepped in, as some of those statements are obviously wrong - not least trying to reinforce a bizarre statement about Daly and Watson lacking pace (watch Ioane and Daly at full speed - they're basically the same) by suggesting Yarde is the right guy. Seriously that's crazy.

Wade, rightly or wrongly just won't get the nod because of his size. I'll back Eddie (and others) judgement on that one. I think the pool of players with a genuinely exciting ceiling in the back three is currently: Watson, Daly, Solomona and May, with Nowell currently ahead of some of them, but with potential flaws that could limit his potential. Over the next few years I'd hope at least one more player comes into the mix, and for our sake I hope it's a 15.

But back to the main point - Daly and Watson not quick? Absolutely mental. Is it even controversial to say they're the quickest players in the Lions squad?

This ... I have no words

[jngf]

Watson and Daly aren't quick enough?!?!

Not compared to Wade and May.

It's another of my old skool beliefs Mikey that England pick out and out finishers on the wings.

Yarde, whilst not as quick as Wade or May, does have an explosive and powerful quality to his running that I'm not convinced Daly, Watson or Nowell share.

[Puja]

Watson and Daly aren't quick enough?!?!

Not compared to Wade and May.

It's another of my old skool beliefs Mikey that England pick out and out finishers on the wings.

Yarde, whilst not as quick as Wade or May, does have an explosive and powerful quality to his running that I'm not convinced Daly, Watson or Nowell share.

I... Watson is quicker than Wade. Like, that's not an opinion, but verifiable physical fact. Yarde is slower than both. This is also an undeniable fact.

How on earth have you arrived at this opinion?!

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I'd say Watson, although he has his flaws, is best finisher we've got and absolutely rapid. Really don't get this statement at all. Wade may be better if he ever had a chance at this level but he seems to be less and less prominent the bigger the game, and fear he wouldn't be the same force at international level.

I reckon Yarde would be close to Wade over the distance but not even close over 10.

[Puja]

Also, if you're into out-and-out finishers, how are you dismissing Nowell?! He's got plenty of flaws, but being able to finish an opportunity in the 22 is not one of them!

A statement, incidentally, that one can't always apply to Jonny May!

Puja

[Raggs]

Where has Watson being faster than wade been verified?

[Banquo]

Where has Watson being faster than wade been verified?

I like a quiz

[Puja]

Where has Watson being faster than wade been verified?

Eyes?


Okay, a less flippant answer. Just done a bit of a youtube hunt for video of them from standing start to full sprint and came across these two:

Wade running 40m from a pass that slows him near to a standstill:
Watson running 40m (well, more than than, but I've only counted the first 40m for this) to chase down an interception:

Watson covers 40m in 5.27s (using a bit of estimate of his width and pythagoras, that's from starting 10m out and going to about 7m from the half-way line). Wade covers 40m in 6.19s. Even if you say that Wade has to slow down for his kick (although he doesn't appear to have broken stride, so it can't be significant), there's still a reasonable difference. Even outside of the timing, the plain evidence of the eyes would suggest Watson's top speed is faster.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Where has Watson being faster than wade been verified?

I like a quiz

I'm disappointed that anything written on the EMB and corroborated by one other poster isn't unequivocally accepted as a fact. You can tell he's an outsider.