Eddie Jones' Phase 2 (Backs)

[Scrumhead]

Scrum Half:

Youngs and Care are here to stay by the looks of things. It's a shame Maunder didn't get more than 4 minutes in Argentina and Eddie doesn't seem to rate Robson and Spencer. Stuart Townsend could be a wildcard contender, but both he and Maunder will be impacted by Exeter signing Nic White for next season.

Conclusion: But for injuries, it's Youngs and Care ...

Fly Half:

Potentially a big debate here. Ford was genuinely excellent in Argentina and with Farrell likely to be rested for the AIs, he has an opportunity to keep impressing but if Eddie wants to change styles and bring someone like Te'o in at 12, I can see Ford being the fall guy in favour of Farrell. Either way, Ford and Farrell are nailed on for Japan.

Lozowski, Francis and Slade all occupy an interesting position. All three are 10s by trade, but are highly unlikely to break in to the England side in that position. IMO, they're competing for one shirt as the utility back. Lozowski is probably in the box seat, but it'll be an interesting battle.

If we want a third out-and-out 10, Freddie Burns has to be putting his hand-up (assuming he can continue his form from last season at Bath).

Conclusion: Ford, Farrell and A.N. Other

Centre:

The 12 shirt is still 100% up for grabs. Farrell is keeping it warm for someone and IMO, Te'o would probably be favourite right now. That said, his starting spot for the Lions most likely rules him out of the AIs so one of Lozowski, Francis or Slade will probably get another chance to press their claim. The trouble is, that I don't see any of them making it compellingly enough to be a genuine threat to the Ford/Farrell axis.

On paper 13 is a lot easier to call. Joseph's try scoring ability and defence, make him an obvious option, but I have a niggling doubt that Eddie is not fully convinced. Daly is the obvious reserve, but I think he's more likely to stay in the back three and I suspect Eddie also likes the idea of Te'o at 13. Marchant is the development prospect, but I don't see him making the side between now and the World Cup. Tuilagi is the obvious wildcard ... I don't see Mallinder as having a chance TBH.

Conclusion: One of Lozowski, Slade or Francis, Joseph, Te'o, Marchant and Tuilagi (if fit ...)

Back Three:

A lot will depend on who is tried at fullback. Mike Brown had a good tour in Argentina but I still expect one of Watson or Daly to be tried at 15. Annoyingly, their starts for the Lions probably delay this until the 6 Nations at the earliest, so Brown clings on for now,

Nowell and May are safe in the squad and if Solomona can build upon his first season at Sale, he's the next in line followed by Yarde. Haley is probably the only fullback with a half-chance. I don't really see anyone else getting a look-in.

Conclusion: Brown, Watson, Daly, Nowell, May and Solomona to stay as the core group. One of Watson or Daly to move to fullback.

Thoughts/opinions?

[bitts]

First off, I enjoyed reading both of these posts so thanks for taking the time to write them.


Thoughts on what you've said:

Chiefs signing Nic White while hoarding you scrum half talent is really annoying.

I actually think Slade is in the box seat for the 3rd 10 / playmaker at 12. If, and it's a big if, he gets a run at 10 at the start of the season I could see him starting at 12 in the AIs. If him and/or Ford are kicking thier goals it will put pressure on Faz.

Tuilagi could also put some pressure on Teos place in the squad if he ever gets fit. Think JJ has 13 sown up for now, but Manu could be an awesome impact sub.

Think there could be a lot of movement I'm the wings. There a few players who could force their way into contention with a big start to the season.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah - I agree re. Manu. I'm not sure whether he's training yet or not, but if he can start the season fit and put in a consistent run of performances across September and October, I'd love to see him as an impact sub in the AIs.

Joseph doesn't look likely to feature much for the Lions now so he should be available to start. Imagine having to face him for 50-60mins and then have him replaced by Manu champing at the bit to make an impact. I pity the opposition midfield facing that.

[Timbo]

I'd like to see Watson in at fullback and the emergence of a real freakish athletic wing would be a nice bonus - Earle, Cokanasiga, Solamona...could be a bit of a game changer for us. Agree with Eddie that some additional physicality in the back line is essential.

Beyond those few wings I don't see many other obvious players that could emerge into the team over the next 2 years capable of taking us to a new level. I like Marchant and Lozowski a lot, but not sure they'll push through fully that quickly. A fully fit Manu back to his best would certainly be a huge help.

[fivepointer]

Earle and Cokanasingha have potentially big seasons ahead of them. Eddie will have had a good look at them. Now they have to move on. If they get some meaningful game time we could see the emergence of exactly the kind of power runner Eddie wants.

Cant help feeling that we've wasted a season with our SH options by only playing Care and Youngs. Robson and Spencer were worth a squad call up at least, while Maunder should have seen more action in Argentina. Whether he plays much at Exeter this season is not at all clear cut. White's recruitment is a major disappointment given Maunder and Townsend have displayed considerable promise.

[Puja]

I really don't see Earle kicking on next season. Sarries have Williams, Goode, Wyles, Ellery, Taylor and Gallagher all ahead of him in their back three and, while some of those names aren't particularly inspiring, he still didn't manage to make a dent in that pecking order last year. And Eddie picked him in the Argentina squad, had him for three weeks and one game, and then called up Yarde from outside the squad and played him in both Argentina tests. He doesn't seem to be impressing the coaches wherever he plays and that's not a good sign.

On the scrum halves, I can't see why Spencer and Robson deserve callups. Yes, Youngs and Care are spotty and have their flaws, but I don't see either Spencer or Robson being any more consistent or less error-prone. The only virtue they have is being new faces. Maunder, however, was hard done by in Argentina and I'm hugely annoyed at Eddie.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I agree.

Had Robson carried on his form from the 2015/16 season, we probably wouldn't be debating our third choice 9, but the reality is, he's basically got similar strengths and weaknesses to Youngs and Care but without 60 odd test caps and years of credit in the bank to demand selection.

I think Maunder and/or Townsend are more likely to break through as 3rd choice.

Re. Earle, I think you're spot on. I can understand why Williams and Goode would be automatic picks along with maybe Maitland, but if he can't get past solid but unspectacular players like Wyles or Ellery and is seen to be less ready than Gallagher, you have to question how good he is/is it hype over substance? If he can't breakthrough in 2017/18, he's got no hope with England pre-2019.

I know he's had injuries, but IIRC, Earle is the same age as Anthony Watson, which puts it in to perspective!

[bitts]

After seeing more of Earle last season I can see Sarries point. Fantastic athlete, not a rubbish workrate, but just a bit spare. Sort of guy who may score loads against weaker opposition, but who will always struggle against top sides.

Despite constantly picking Earle as my one to watch at the start of the last four seasons, I'm actually now more worried that Sarries will stunt Malins development. As he's behind two Internationals in both positions he plays. Okay, one of them is Good, but I still don't see him getting a lot of game time. It seems ridiculous to say anyone should move from Sarries, but I really think he should.

[Scrumhead]

After seeing more of Earle last season I can see Sarries point. Fantastic athlete, not a rubbish workrate, but just a bit spare. Sort of guy who may score loads against weaker opposition, but who will always struggle against top sides.

Despite constantly picking Earle as my one to watch at the start of the last four seasons, I'm actually now more worried that Sarries will stunt Malins development. As he's behind two Internationals in both positions he plays. Okay, one of them is Good, but I still don't see him getting a lot of game time. It seems ridiculous to say anyone should move from Sarries, but I really think he should.

It'll never happen but I would LOVE Malins at Quins. We could give him significant game time and a genuine opportunity to be first choice within a season or two.

I don't know what Saracens plans are to bring him through, but as you say he's behind Farrell and Lozowski at 10 and Williams, Goode and potential Maitland at 15. He may see some game time if Farrell and Lozowski are both away with England, but from memory, Whiteley was used at 10 in the AW Cup. I can't see that Malins has anything to gain by being dual registered with a National One club again, so hopefully there is a bigger plan to make sure he's properly developed.

[bitts]

After seeing more of Earle last season I can see Sarries point. Fantastic athlete, not a rubbish workrate, but just a bit spare. Sort of guy who may score loads against weaker opposition, but who will always struggle against top sides.

Despite constantly picking Earle as my one to watch at the start of the last four seasons, I'm actually now more worried that Sarries will stunt Malins development. As he's behind two Internationals in both positions he plays. Okay, one of them is Good, but I still don't see him getting a lot of game time. It seems ridiculous to say anyone should move from Sarries, but I really think he should.

It'll never happen but I would LOVE Malins at Quins. We could give him significant game time and a genuine opportunity to be first choice within a season or two.

I don't know what Saracens plans are to bring him through, but as you say he's behind Farrell and Lozowski at 10 and Williams, Goode and potential Maitland at 15. He may see some game time if Farrell and Lozowski are both away with England, but from memory, Whiteley was used at 10 in the AW Cup. I can't see that Malins has anything to gain by being dual registered with a National One club again, so hopefully there is a bigger plan to make sure he's properly developed.

I wonder if Eddie will have a word.

[Banquo]

After seeing more of Earle last season I can see Sarries point. Fantastic athlete, not a rubbish workrate, but just a bit spare. Sort of guy who may score loads against weaker opposition, but who will always struggle against top sides.

Despite constantly picking Earle as my one to watch at the start of the last four seasons, I'm actually now more worried that Sarries will stunt Malins development. As he's behind two Internationals in both positions he plays. Okay, one of them is Good, but I still don't see him getting a lot of game time. It seems ridiculous to say anyone should move from Sarries, but I really think he should.

It'll never happen but I would LOVE Malins at Quins. We could give him significant game time and a genuine opportunity to be first choice within a season or two.

I don't know what Saracens plans are to bring him through, but as you say he's behind Farrell and Lozowski at 10 and Williams, Goode and potential Maitland at 15. He may see some game time if Farrell and Lozowski are both away with England, but from memory, Whiteley was used at 10 in the AW Cup. I can't see that Malins has anything to gain by being dual registered with a National One club again, so hopefully there is a bigger plan to make sure he's properly developed.

I wonder if Eddie will have a word.

I do also think players have to 'make a case' at their clubs, and/or take their own destiny into their hands......Eddie's word might be- fight for yourself.

[bitts]

It'll never happen but I would LOVE Malins at Quins. We could give him significant game time and a genuine opportunity to be first choice within a season or two.

I don't know what Saracens plans are to bring him through, but as you say he's behind Farrell and Lozowski at 10 and Williams, Goode and potential Maitland at 15. He may see some game time if Farrell and Lozowski are both away with England, but from memory, Whiteley was used at 10 in the AW Cup. I can't see that Malins has anything to gain by being dual registered with a National One club again, so hopefully there is a bigger plan to make sure he's properly developed.

I wonder if Eddie will have a word.

I do also think players have to 'make a case' at their clubs, and/or take their own destiny into their hands......Eddie's word might be- fight for yourself.

I agree for players a little bit older. But right now, Malins will be looking at TBC and thinking 'this guy has a much better chance of getting game time. that must be better for his development'. Just look at the difference between Ford/Faz and Slade. True Slade got a lot of gametime, but I'm convinced his time moving around the backline is why he seems to be getting further behind the other two when he should be catching up. I'm also sure Robson would be ahead of where he is if he wasn't stuck at the back of the queue at Glos for so long.

Basically I'm saying they should all come to Falcons for a season or two!

[Mellsblue]

I wonder if Eddie will have a word.

I do also think players have to 'make a case' at their clubs, and/or take their own destiny into their hands......Eddie's word might be- fight for yourself.

I agree for players a little bit older. But right now, Malins will be looking at TBC and thinking 'this guy has a much better chance of getting game time. that must be better for his development'. Just look at the difference between Ford/Faz and Slade. True Slade got a lot of gametime, but I'm convinced his time moving around the backline is why he seems to be getting further behind the other two when he should be catching up. I'm also sure Robson would be ahead of where he is if he wasn't stuck at the back of the queue at Glos for so long.

Basically I'm saying they should all come to Falcons for a season or two!

Looking forward to seeing him at Goldington Rd next season. A season of running rugby, down hill taking hits off wily vets will do him the world of good.

[Stom]

So we're looking at, in order, with italics outsiders fighting for one spot:

Youngs, Care, Maunder, Robson, Spencer
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Francis, Slade, Burns
Farrell, Te'o, Francis, Slade, Lozowski
Joseph, Daly, Marchant, Slade
Daly, May, Watson, Nowell, Yarde, Solomona, Rokodoguni, Earle
Brown, Watson, Daly, Nowell, Haley, Slade

That's a core of 24 players, 13 nailed on, for 14-15 spots in a WC squad. Add Slade, who's surely there as an all rounder, and that's our 14.

I don't see many changes, tbh. Loz, Francis and Slade could swap positions in the pecking order. Watson could go 15, Brown could drop out. But that would leave us short of specialized FBs unless someone comes through.

So, no, that's our backs in 2019, imo.

Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski
Te'o, Slade, Joseph, Daly
May, Watson, Nowell, Yarde
Brown

With one of Francis or Marchant most likely. Pack, or rather the flanks, have a few more decisions...

[TheNomad]

I doubt Yarde will make it personally, and the versatility of the likes of Daly and Watson means he could just as easily be replaced with Marchant (such a shame he was injured, I think he has that undefinable star quality in spades) as he could with the likes of Solomona, who witha a bit of refining could be special.

Either way, I think that's pretty much there. Most of those are nailed on. I think Brown would be on thin ground were it not for a lack of genuine specialist 15s of sufficient quality elsewhere

[Danno]

MB will be 34 come Japan and I would be mighty surprised if he doesn't lose a yard or two of pace by then. A new face there is a must have for that reason alone; never mind his drop in form since '14

[skidger]

MB will be 34 come Japan and I would be mighty surprised if he doesn't lose a yard or two of pace by then. A new face there is a must have for that reason alone; never mind his drop in form since '14

This will be amusing to see and if possible may make him even angrier.

[Stom]

We have a host of players who could theoretically play FB, but don't. Could Malins get some first team game time? Will Morris breakthrough? But he's at Quins behind Brown...

Go back to 2013 and Nowell was at FB with Watson on the wing...

We need to find someone playing regularly at FB before the next WC. We should have Watson, but we'd need 1 more. Whether that's one of Daly, Nowell or Slade, or whether it's Morris or Malins, or even Haley or Lozowski...doesn't really matter.

They just need to play some rugby there.

[TheNomad]

Lozowski has everything he needs to be a great 15 IMO, but I'm not sure he'll get much game time there

Malins could be a little light weight, but is a lovely runner with a great boot, but again, not sure he'll get the game time

Slade is a possibility, albeit more in a playmaker type role than a counter attacker. He could make a good fist of it, not as sure though. I would love to find a place for him if we can - no other English player pulls off that assist vs. Argentina

[Mikey Brown]

Yup. Given we're likely to spend the next year faffing with Teo/Farrell at 12* and Joseph is nailed on at 13 (if you're remotely good at coaching) they might both be wise to try and play 15 a bit. I can see either making a very strong case for the 22 shirt covering 10/12/15.

*Both seem limited but that's what we're looking at. At least Teo at 12 adds a bit more balance to the backline, then having another player who can distribute/attach at 15 may then make more sense.

[Oakboy]

Eddie has so far started Farrell, T'eo, Francis and Lozowski at 12 (any others?). He has not tried Slade yet. That seems odd unless he has been discounted. It's close to being too late now.

[Scrumhead]

I agree it's likely to be too late for Slade to put himself in serious contention at 12. However, I think the only reason he wasn't tried there in Argentina was down to the lack of experienced options at 13.

I assume Eddie felt that Lozowski/Francis at 12 with Slade at 13 was a better combination that Slade and James.

It's a shame Marchant couldn't tour as I think we could well have seen Slade at 12 if he had been there.

[Mikey Brown]

Yup. Gutted on both counts really. James impressed me and Marchant is a real talent, also plays in a similar ish way to Joseph which would be interesting to see.

[6.5]

The Lions series really sharpens the mind about the size of the test ahead. To stand a chance against NZ we may need to start taking some risks on players who have intelligence, the basic skillset and high upside. Whether this can be done before 2019 is another question.

For me there are four buckets...

Fit to face NZ...

Ford
JJ
Manu
Daly
Watson
Te'o (from the bench)
May

Good players, need specific work

Youngs - consistency
Farrell - Needs to play 12 and add a running game
Nowell - best at 15

Risks with the right skillset...

Maunder
Townsend
Slade
Mallinder
Marchant
Lozowski (at 15)
Cokasinga
Solomona

Experienced but not good enough...

Care
Brown

Looking at that, the big problems are 9, 12 and 15. The start of next season will be key for the players competing in those positions.


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[6.5]

Ive just realised ive put Manu in a "fit" bucket but hopefully you know what i mean...!


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