RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:49 pm I think the issue is that whilst the best players may be the older ones, that doesn't mean they are still capable internationals. A few years ago, some of them would have been in genuine contention, not now.

Development for me would have included Holmes for sure. I would also have settled on a scrum half much earlier and given them a run without the constant changing. The trial with North in the centre was worth a shot, but sadly hasn't been as successful as we hoped.

Losing key locks to overseas has been a huge blow and PRivac brough through Rowlands who ticks all the boxes. But what about Wainwright who has faded from the scene. We do have a wealth of back row talent but instead we have tired to convert Seb Davies into a blindside which hasn't worked when thats game time that Moriarty or Wainwright could have used to to develop still further.

Privac has been dealt some crap cards, including covid. But he could also have drawn a line under the previous generation immediately and given younger players a run, instead of the constant chopping and changing.

Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:12 pm I think we need to stick with Tshiunza @ 6 and Reffell @ 7 as these are two that have impressed highly, I see Lleyellyn should be fit for Cardiff on the weekend, maybe worth drafting him in for a look too, him and Grady in the centres would be Gatgasmic.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:10 pm Gatland had his core squad and only relatively belatedly tried to expand his player base's international experience ( I'm sure I read somewhere that Gatland capped more players in his last 2 to 3 years than in all the others, but I wouldn't put my house on that!)
Pivac selected a lot of players but I'm still not sure what style of play he wanted from them. There were some successes ( eg LRZ, Rowlands, Tompkins) but others never seemed to stay fit long enough to have a run. Remember that awful European nations cup thing? Some of the plus points of that were players like Shane Lewis hughes, james botham and Jonny Williams, all of whom might have become team regulars bar for injury. In the case of SLH, and Botham, they might struggle to fight their way back in given the depth we have at 6 & 7 ( although admittedly they're still young). Then there were the likes of Ioan lloyd and tom Rogers, who seemed to come and go without much impact. And as for Holmes if pivac wasnt going to pick him.when he was in form and covered a position where we had little depth (fb), then he probably didn't have much of an international future.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:59 pm I can see Tshiunza taking over from Faletau one day, which would open the 6 spot up again.

Tuco Ramirez wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:19 am

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:52 am

Tuco Ramirez wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:19 am

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:52 am

Tuco Ramirez wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:19 am

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:10 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:52 am

Tuco Ramirez wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:19 am

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

You're both probably right, in that Holmes was never likely to set the world alight, he just looked like a competent back three player, and a useful squad member. He did hit a vein of form for the Dragons at one point but that didnt lead to the recognition that some people expected it too. As said above, if Pivac wasnt picking Holmes when he was playing well, then he never was.
The problem is now that Wales still doesn't have many alternatives to the established players in the back three. Our options seem to be play Williams ot halfpenny ( if he's ever fit to play) at 15, or move Adams or LRZ to FB and put cuthbert on the wing. All it needs is a couple more injuries to those, and we're almost picking names out of a hat from regional players. Holmes, mcnicholl, lloyd etc might not have been top class players, but we've got to pick someone.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:29 pm

Angus O Brian is a good full back but is another who seems to be overlooked. To be fair there was a FB at Ospreys who got overlooked for years (name totally escapes me) so some coaches just have their preferences.

Gatland didn’t really give Gareth Delve an opportunity it y when actually fit, although injuries were a regular feature so more inderstandable

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:52 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:10 pm Gatland had his core squad and only relatively belatedly tried to expand his player base's international experience ( I'm sure I read somewhere that Gatland capped more players in his last 2 to 3 years than in all the others, but I wouldn't put my house on that!)
Pivac selected a lot of players but I'm still not sure what style of play he wanted from them. There were some successes ( eg LRZ, Rowlands, Tompkins) but others never seemed to stay fit long enough to have a run. Remember that awful European nations cup thing? Some of the plus points of that were players like Shane Lewis hughes, james botham and Jonny Williams, all of whom might have become team regulars bar for injury. In the case of SLH, and Botham, they might struggle to fight their way back in given the depth we have at 6 & 7 ( although admittedly they're still young). Then there were the likes of Ioan lloyd and tom Rogers, who seemed to come and go without much impact. And as for Holmes if pivac wasnt going to pick him.when he was in form and covered a position where we had little depth (fb), then he probably didn't have much of an international future.

Ioan Lloyd has got a real skillset, but he would probably make an international coach nervous. Cracking player to bring off the bench though when a game opens up a bit.

Jonny Williams is a decent player, just needs to stay fit.

Botham did well and was developing nicely. But as you say, our back row riches make the future less certain for him with Wales.

Numbers wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:26 am

Unfortunately Ioan Lloyd seems to have fallen out of favour at Bristol, he's hardly played this season from what I've seen, Max Nagy at the Ospreys is a big lad who's good under the high ball, he could be one to watch (the Osprey you mentioned had been overlooked later in this thread is Dan Evans btw).

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:58 am

Numbers wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:26 am

Unfortunately Ioan Lloyd seems to have fallen out of favour at Bristol, he's hardly played this season from what I've seen, Max Nagy at the Ospreys is a big lad who's good under the high ball, he could be one to watch (the Osprey you mentioned had been overlooked later in this thread is Dan Evans btw).

I think Bristol play Lloyd as a centre these days when they do play him.
Is Nagy, Welsh qualified? I assume he is by now by residency if not by ancestry.( I'm sure he's English born and Nagy sounds like a Hungarian name to me).
I'd forgotten about Evans, he was playing well at one point. There again, I forgot about Patchell when I was talking about options at 15, and he's already in the squad!

Numbers wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:26 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:52 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:10 pm Gatland had his core squad and only relatively belatedly tried to expand his player base's international experience ( I'm sure I read somewhere that Gatland capped more players in his last 2 to 3 years than in all the others, but I wouldn't put my house on that!)
Pivac selected a lot of players but I'm still not sure what style of play he wanted from them. There were some successes ( eg LRZ, Rowlands, Tompkins) but others never seemed to stay fit long enough to have a run. Remember that awful European nations cup thing? Some of the plus points of that were players like Shane Lewis hughes, james botham and Jonny Williams, all of whom might have become team regulars bar for injury. In the case of SLH, and Botham, they might struggle to fight their way back in given the depth we have at 6 & 7 ( although admittedly they're still young). Then there were the likes of Ioan lloyd and tom Rogers, who seemed to come and go without much impact. And as for Holmes if pivac wasnt going to pick him.when he was in form and covered a position where we had little depth (fb), then he probably didn't have much of an international future.

Ioan Lloyd has got a real skillset, but he would probably make an international coach nervous. Cracking player to bring off the bench though when a game opens up a bit.

Jonny Williams is a decent player, just needs to stay fit.

Botham did well and was developing nicely. But as you say, our back row riches make the future less certain for him with Wales.

Unfortunately Ioan Lloyd seems to have fallen out of favour at Bristol, he's hardly played this season from what I've seen, Max Nagy at the Ospreys is a big lad who's good under the high ball, he could be one to watch (the Osprey you mentioned had been overlooked later in this thread is Dan Evans btw).

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:27 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:52 am

Tuco Ramirez wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:19 am

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

For about two seasons he was the standout back for the Dragons, even when the rest of the team was being stuffed. He deserved an opportunity based on club form.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:02 am LRZ looked good last night for Glaws, which is one positive at least.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:38 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:02 am LRZ looked good last night for Glaws, which is one positive at least.

It's safe to say he's fit again!