England training camp

[jimKRFC]

BREAKING: Nick Isiekwe and Charlie Ewels have replaced Alex Coles and George Martin in the England training squad due to injury.

They join Maro Itoje and Ollie Chessum as other lock options in the training squad.

George Martin will remain with the squad for rehabilitation.

Was Ewells even on the pitch against Bristol? Totally outplayed by Dunn and Batley. Given past performances he shouldn't be near the England squad.

[FKAS]

BREAKING: Nick Isiekwe and Charlie Ewels have replaced Alex Coles and George Martin in the England training squad due to injury.

They join Maro Itoje and Ollie Chessum as other lock options in the training squad.

George Martin will remain with the squad for rehabilitation.

Was Ewells even on the pitch against Bristol? Totally outplayed by Dunn and Batley. Given past performances he shouldn't be near the England squad.

His emergence Vs Tigers coincided with Bath disrupting the Tigers lineout. He's a good leader and has a good knowledge of the game. I think it was Ollie Chessum who said he was really good with the new locks in camp, helping them settle in. Doesn't mean Ewels is an international quality lock but for a short training camp he's probably a good call for squad cohesion.

[Oakboy]

Wigglesworth now the official No 2 in the coaching set-up!!

[p/d]

Great news, isn’t it.

[Puja]

Wigglesworth now the official No 2 in the coaching set-up!!

If the rumour is true that he was the person behind the change of strategy mid-6N, then I'm in favour. Mind, not as though there's a lot of competition right now. El-Abd is part-time, as are the consultants of Sinfield and Strawbridge - it's down to Wiggy or Harrison.

Puja

[Puja]

Also, the squad announcement for the AIs is being made on Wednesday. Feels early to me, although that's probably because the season started so late so there's been fewer games for players to make a mark.

Puja

[FKAS]

Probably easier to play your way out of the squad then play your way into it at present.

[Mikey Brown]

Probably easier to play your way out of the squad then play your way into it at present.

Somehow this makes complete sense on one hand, but then... what does that really mean?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it's certainly easier to play badly than to play well.

[FKAS]

Probably easier to play your way out of the squad then play your way into it at present.

Somehow this makes complete sense on one hand, but then... what does that really mean?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it's certainly easier to play badly than to play well.

Given the small number of games it's hard to demonstrate enough form to make a case to replace somebody already in the squad. However, if you are in the squad a string of bad games is probably enough to create doubt in your position and to allow some of the competition to push ahead of you.

Won't apply to every player and position as there aren't always like for like replacements. Dan Cole being an example, consigned to the bench at Tigers but there's no other tighthead close to the experience he brings which is really his role in the squad. Now a 9 or backrow having an off spell could quickly find themselves watching the AIs on the TV at home.

[Oakboy]

Tomorrow's squad announcement will be interesting. Anybody know the likely overall numbers? There were 36 in the training camp originally so might we lose a few but gain none?

[Which Tyler]

Just having a look at some stats.


Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

​For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

[Oakboy]

Just having a look at some stats.


Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

​For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

Interesting. I suppose there are mitigating factors. For example, who did we play against? What was the state of the other countries - might none of the others have faced such strong Irish and French teams or whatever. Also, what about the state of what was inherited. Jones certainly scooped there, I'd suggest, especially compared with what he left.

Overall, I share reservations about SB but I think we have the best future potentially since 2002ish if he can manage the playing resources with sufficient skill.

[Puja]

Just having a look at some stats.


Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

​For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

Eeesh. I mean, it doesn't feel as bad as those stats say, cause the recent losses against France and NZ x 2 were incredibly close losses away to very good teams with signs of progress, buuuuuut at some point those games need to be turning into actual victories, rather than moral victories. I'll be confident in him if he gets 3/4 this autumn, disappointed in 2/4, and appalled if it's fewer.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Just having a look at some stats.


Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

​For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

Eeesh. I mean, it doesn't feel as bad as those stats say, cause the recent losses against France and NZ x 2 were incredibly close losses away to very good teams with signs of progress, buuuuuut at some point those games need to be turning into actual victories, rather than moral victories. I'll be confident in him if he gets 3/4 this autumn, disappointed in 2/4, and appalled if it's fewer.

Puja

Quite. I do wonder if Wigglesworth is fully up to his part of that. SB's future depends on it, obviously.

[Puja]

Just having a look at some stats.


Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

​For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

Eeesh. I mean, it doesn't feel as bad as those stats say, cause the recent losses against France and NZ x 2 were incredibly close losses away to very good teams with signs of progress, buuuuuut at some point those games need to be turning into actual victories, rather than moral victories. I'll be confident in him if he gets 3/4 this autumn, disappointed in 2/4, and appalled if it's fewer.

Puja

Quite. I do wonder if Wigglesworth is fully up to his part of that. SB's future depends on it, obviously.

I think you underestimate him a little bit - he's young as a coach, but has international experience coaching with Canada, was head coach for Leicester for 3/4 of a season, and is in charge of the one bit of the England side that I think everyone agrees is currently working quite well (and which has improved the longer he's been there). He's an easy subject for a cheap shot, but he's also one of the bits of the England setup that I have fewest concerns about.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Just having a look at some stats.


Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

​For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

Interesting. I suppose there are mitigating factors. For example, who did we play against? What was the state of the other countries - might none of the others have faced such strong Irish and French teams or whatever. Also, what about the state of what was inherited. Jones certainly scooped there, I'd suggest, especially compared with what he left.

Overall, I share reservations about SB but I think we have the best future potentially since 2002ish if he can manage the playing resources with sufficient skill.

Catching up on the thread and I would have written a near identical post to this.

I also have some question marks over Borthwick, but reading those stats without the relevant context makes them look worse than I think they actually are.

I do agree with Puja that we need to find our way to getting on the right side of close games against the better teams, but I’d be a lot more concerned if we were miles off, which we aren’t.

[Mellsblue]

Eeesh. I mean, it doesn't feel as bad as those stats say, cause the recent losses against France and NZ x 2 were incredibly close losses away to very good teams with signs of progress, buuuuuut at some point those games need to be turning into actual victories, rather than moral victories. I'll be confident in him if he gets 3/4 this autumn, disappointed in 2/4, and appalled if it's fewer.

Puja

Quite. I do wonder if Wigglesworth is fully up to his part of that. SB's future depends on it, obviously.

I think you underestimate him a little bit - he's young as a coach, but has international experience coaching with Canada, was head coach for Leicester for 3/4 of a season, and is in charge of the one bit of the England side that I think everyone agrees is currently working quite well (and which has improved the longer he's been there). He's an easy subject for a cheap shot, but he's also one of the bits of the England setup that I have fewest concerns about.

Puja

That’s a great cv for 2IC of a tier 2 side like Wales but not so much if your aim is to be the best test side in the world.
Last sentence is bald men fighting over a comb.

[Banquo]

Quite. I do wonder if Wigglesworth is fully up to his part of that. SB's future depends on it, obviously.

I think you underestimate him a little bit - he's young as a coach, but has international experience coaching with Canada, was head coach for Leicester for 3/4 of a season, and is in charge of the one bit of the England side that I think everyone agrees is currently working quite well (and which has improved the longer he's been there). He's an easy subject for a cheap shot, but he's also one of the bits of the England setup that I have fewest concerns about.

Puja

That’s a great cv for 2IC of a tier 2 side like Wales but not so much if your aim is to be the best test side in the world.
Last sentence is bald men fighting over a comb.

.....France no 2, Shaun Edwards, just as a comparator....

[FKAS]

I had plenty of doubts about Wigglesworth but he put into place the kicking strategy for the world cup, which let's face facts kept us in it and turned Mitchell into an international 9. Post world cup he's made the attack actually fun to watch for the first time in a few years.

Not sure he'd have been my pick were we to be appointing a specific number 2 but he's done a good job and Borthwick trusts him.

[Mellsblue]

And, crucially, has been on the Tigers payroll.

[Banquo]

And, crucially, has been on the Tigers payroll.

[Puja]

And, crucially, has been on the Tigers payroll.

I will admit that I was glad to have him off it when he went and was taking the cheap shots alongside you all at the beginning. However, I find it hard to argue with the improvement that's come about in the part of the team that he's responsible for.

Puja

[Banquo]

And, crucially, has been on the Tigers payroll.

I will admit that I was glad to have him off it when he went and was taking the cheap shots alongside you all at the beginning. However, I find it hard to argue with the improvement that's come about in the part of the team that he's responsible for.

Puja

And crucially isn’t on the Tigers payroll

On a serious note, kinda… but much as FKAS loves the kicking, whoever is drilling kabaddi into them needs a talking to.

[FKAS]

I will admit that I was glad to have him off it when he went and was taking the cheap shots alongside you all at the beginning. However, I find it hard to argue with the improvement that's come about in the part of the team that he's responsible for.

Puja

And crucially isn’t on the Tigers payroll

On a serious note, kinda… but much as FKAS loves the kicking, whoever is drilling kabaddi into them needs a talking to.

I was thinking more of the development of the box kicking game and controlling territory as opposed to Farrell and Slade's tendency to punt good attacking ball into the opposition 22 and hope for the best. Wasn't that more a hangover from the Eddie days and a tactic that Borthwick kept initially but we've largely seen the death of.

[Banquo]

I will admit that I was glad to have him off it when he went and was taking the cheap shots alongside you all at the beginning. However, I find it hard to argue with the improvement that's come about in the part of the team that he's responsible for.

Puja

And crucially isn’t on the Tigers payroll

On a serious note, kinda… but much as FKAS loves the kicking, whoever is drilling kabaddi into them needs a talking to.

I was thinking more of the development of the box kicking game and controlling territory as opposed to Farrell and Slade's tendency to punt good attacking ball into the opposition 22 and hope for the best. Wasn't that more a hangover from the Eddie days and a tactic that Borthwick kept initially but we've largely seen the death of.

lol gotcha.

I seem to recall a load of kabaddi in nz could well be wrong (puja reinstated the counter:) ). I definitely remember you defending the tactic
Also have to say development of box kicking is one of the easier things to do in rugby, but sadly important