England U20 vs Bath

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Mellsblue
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Mellsblue »

Which Tyler wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:07 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:28 pm I suppose it depends on whether the overriding aim of the u20s 6N is to win or to develop.

a) Can't you aim to win AND develop? Can't you develop both the hottest propping prodigies at the same time?
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:28 pmThere’s also the worry that Eng/RFU see him as a LH long term and I’ve read a number of articles that this is the case.
b) Meh, we'll have a different head coach by the time they get any further say in the matter.
c) Any articles with any actual meat? or articles based on articles which were based on an offhand comment made before he had any particular senior game time?


d) I really don't see any reason whatsoever that playing the U20 6N at LHP is going to harm his development over the next 3-4 years
a) Hence the use of ‘overriding’. If u20 exposure is important, which everyone agrees it is, and there’s only a handful of truly competitive games a year then I’d want as much quality exposure as possible. Especially, in this particular example, when the RFU itself is making such a big song and dance about producing quality scrummagers.
b) This is probably true.
c) From respected journos. I’m not talking Andy Goode or some random on Twatter.
d) Don’t know enough to be confident you’re wrong but then I’m guessing you don’t know enough to be confident you’re right.

I’m sure the RFU know what they’re doing…
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Puja
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Puja »

Which Tyler wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:07 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:28 pm I suppose it depends on whether the overriding aim of the u20s 6N is to win or to develop.

Can't you aim to win AND develop? Can't you develop both the hottest propping prodigies at the same time?
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:28 pmThere’s also the worry that Eng/RFU see him as a LH long term and I’ve read a number of articles that this is the case.
Meh, we'll have a different head coach by the time they get any further say in the matter.
Any articles with any actual meat? or articles based on articles which were based on an offhand comment made before he had any particular senior game time?


I really don't see any reason whatsoever that playing the U20 6N at LHP is going to harm his development over the next 3-4 years
If we're talking about 5 one-off games taken completely in isolation, sure, that's fine. But given that there's this whole idea of RFU coaches helping develop scrummagers and guide them through the pathways and provide additional support outside of the club to develop front row that can stand up to the best in the world in the scrums, it's a little bit worrying that the two different forces guiding his development can't agree on where he's going to play, especially given that any additional support spent teaching him loosehead is going to be mostly wasted if he's never going to play there beyond U20s.

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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Epaminondas Pules »

Oh no , he can play both sides of the scrum!
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Puja
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Puja »

Epaminondas Pules wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:26 am Oh no , he can play both sides of the scrum!
There is a reason that "jack of all trades, master of none" is an adage.

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Yorkie
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Yorkie »

Another Jason Leonard then!
FKAS
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by FKAS »

Puja wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 1:56 am
Epaminondas Pules wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:26 am Oh no , he can play both sides of the scrum!
There is a reason that "jack of all trades, master of none" is an adage.

Puja
Thomas du Toit's career and earnings have been pretty decent and he's able to play both sides at the highest level. He's got a shiny world cup winners medal as well.

Being able to cover both sides used to be a fairly common thing before the extra sub got added to the bench. At 19 a bit more experience on both sides won't hurt.

We should have some good LHs at this level, Cameron Miell isn't in the squad but was there for the friendlies and is highly rated at Tigers. Highly rated enough they brought him over from SA at 18.
Timbo
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Timbo »

Probably a bit reductive, but AOF is just a bit small to be playing tighthead at test level isn’t he? I know he’s only 19 and will put on a bit of timber & he’s obviously extremely powerful, but to my eye his frame and natural body size just means he’ll always be giving away a lot of size to the best tightheads. Malherbe, Antonio, Furlong, Tupou etc are all 125kg+++. He’s never going to be close to that. You can still have success with individual scrums giving away that sort of weight, but too often you’ll lose an engage or get into a bad set up and without the extra weight you’re getting marmalized.
FKAS
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by FKAS »

Brace for Pollock in the first half. The second was a great finish from a lineout. Captain Carnduff got one just before halftime so as not to be completely outdone by his flanking compatriot.
fivepointer
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by fivepointer »

Dewi Morris on comms......mute came into play early.

Pollock does look some talent. Poor opening quarter but we're settling down, getting on top in the scrum and looking a lot more assured.
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Adam_P
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Adam_P »

Pollock doing Pollock things

Captainhaircut
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Captainhaircut »

Can this lad go play centre where he belongs? We’ve got a million back rowers.
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Puja
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Puja »

Morris was appalling. Just a general lack of understanding of the game, combined with being dogmatic about opinions that weren't happening. Italy won the first couple of scrums, so he was chuntering about how they were dominant and England were in trouble and it was going to be a long evening, and then tried to keep that up despite England winning the next three with dominant scrums.

On the pitch, we missed McParland terribly. The replacement 9 who came in followed the grand England U20s tradition of being ponderous and indecisive. The rest of the team did pretty well though.

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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Margin_Walker »

Puja wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 12:04 am Morris was appalling. Just a general lack of understanding of the game, combined with being dogmatic about opinions that weren't happening. Italy won the first couple of scrums, so he was chuntering about how they were dominant and England were in trouble and it was going to be a long evening, and then tried to keep that up despite England winning the next three with dominant scrums.

On the pitch, we missed McParland terribly. The replacement 9 who came in followed the grand England U20s tradition of being ponderous and indecisive. The rest of the team did pretty well though.

Puja
Agree with all that. Dewi was doing my head in. If you had no knowledge of rugby and were just listening to him, you'd think the ref was riding Italy.

The 9 really wasn't great. Rested his hands on the ball for a second before every pass, which murdered our ruck speed all game.

Otherwise a decent first game, with some room for improvement before we face the big boys.
fivepointer
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by fivepointer »

McParland was a big miss. Was really looking forward to seeing he he played.
Forwards went well. Pollock, Carnduff, Kpoku and the props looked good and Michelow added some zest from the bench. Cant say any of the backs caught my eye.
A comfortable win in Italy isnt the worst way to start the 6Ns.
Epaminondas Pules
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Epaminondas Pules »

Douglas really didn’t shine at all, and didn’t help the backline get any momentum. Lovely line and late pass for Redshaw break, but they didn’t really get going.

Forwards rose to the challenge and looked strong. Lots of good stuff in there.

Did notice that Fasogbon is with the squad and is hopefully near / back to fitness which would be great.

And Dewi Morris! My life! That was the worst co-comms I think I’ve ever witnessed!
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Which Tyler
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Which Tyler »

Was Dewi worse than normal? Or is it just that you haven't listened to him for a few years?

Haven't watched yet, so no opinion of my own to contribute
fivepointer
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by fivepointer »

My heart sank when i heard Morris on comms. I lasted about 10 mins then hit the mute button. There's only so much ignorance and dimwittery that a man can take.
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Puja
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Puja »

Which Tyler wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:32 am Was Dewi worse than normal? Or is it just that you haven't listened to him for a few years?

Haven't watched yet, so no opinion of my own to contribute
Genuinely don't know if he's got worse, but he was pretty bad last night in isolation.

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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Epaminondas Pules »

Worse. He’s always been terrible, but last night was a level of dreadful only matched by the senrios England sides attack! There wasn’t a single aspect of anything he said that was near reality. It was like pitying a drunk
fivepointer
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by fivepointer »

Few changes for Fridays game against Wales. Thankfully McParland is named at SH

Margin_Walker
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Margin_Walker »

Nice to see Makepeace-Cubitt still involved in the pathway.

Ex LI, who didn't pick up a contract with another prem club after their collapse and currently turning out for Rams in ND1. Playmaking utility back (mainly FB). Always looked handy
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Epaminondas Pules »

Henry Pollock interview:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... hard-hill/

Henry Pollock interview: The England U20 hat-trick hero already on senior team’s radar
Exclusive: Northampton's teenage flanker has been contacted by Richard Hill after stunning debut in Under-20 Six Nations

Charlie Morgan,

There are two types of rugby union fan in this country. Many are already aware of Henry Pollock, perhaps via sizzling highlights of age-grade action. The rest, one suspects, will come to know him pretty soon.

Pollock was already building quite a buzz before Friday night, when he marked his debut for England Under-20s with a hat-trick in Treviso as Italy were beaten 36-11. Having turned 19 only last month, the all-action Northampton Saints flanker will also be eligible for this level next year.

Richard Hill, the 2003 World Cup-winner and now England team manager, has become a valued mentor for young back-rowers, acting as a sounding board for Sam Underhill and Tom Curry. This year, he alerted Steve Borthwick to the potential of Ethan Roots, who promptly won a player-of-the-match award on Test debut in Rome. Hill contacted Pollock a few days ago.

“Hilly got in touch after the Italy game at the weekend and gave me a few tips,” Pollock explains. Predictably, a master of the ‘unseen work’ addressed a few subtleties.

“He was talking mainly about my work-rate off the ball,” Pollock adds of Hill’s pointers. “Sometimes I might get a bit lazy, walking around the pitch. He’s really, really good with me because he’ll see stuff I wouldn’t normally notice.

“Now I know, going into the game at Bath [against Wales], I need to be working harder at kick-offs and times like that, not switching off. It’s something I’ll hopefully adapt into my game.”

As for talents that are easier to spot – pace, evasive footwork, offloading and disruptive breakdown defence – Pollock seems to possess them in abundance. He supported Ben Redshaw’s break to score his first against Italy before tearing 30 metres through two tackles to add a second from the tail of a maul.

The shock-blond teenager set up England’s fourth try, tapping a penalty and lifting a pass to Josh Bellamy, and rubber-stamped the win when he benefitted from a late line-out drive.

Pollock salutes a “special” victory, founded on a “squad effort”. England now face Wales on Friday at The Rec, where they will also host a strong Ireland side on March 8.

An eye-catching introduction to under-20s action seemed inevitable for Pollock, who signed his first professional contract with Northampton last spring while still at Stowe School.

A year previously, in 2022, he captained England U18s in South Africa and returned with an award for forward of the series. The hosts edged a thrilling decider 44-41. Pollock’s emotional post-match interview drew widespread attention.

“Listen, the lads are f------ buzzing after that,” he told a television reporter. “That f------ scoreboard shows a lot of heart. We came back when we wanted to come back and I’m really proud of the boys there. I’m f------ proud.”

In truth, such authenticity is exactly what we often crave from stars in the spotlight. Reflecting around 18 months later, Pollock stands by the sentiment, if not the language used.

‘F-bomb’ interview
“We didn’t get interviewed after the last two, so I wasn’t really expecting to get interviewed,” he remembers. “We’d lost in the last minute and it was… it was a political moment, the reason we lost.

“I got pulled into the interview and I said some wrong stuff. If I could go back, I’d change it. My intentions were right, I just dropped the F-bomb a couple of times. You live and you learn, right?”

After that tour, in January 2023 while playing for Saints Academy in a friendly at Cinch Stadium, Pollock sped some 75 metres on a stunning solo run. As he crossed his own 22, he hitch-kicked around a would-be tackler and then outstripped two more to reach the try-line.

This season, a formidable trajectory has continued. At the end of September, Pollock was drafted into the Saints line-up for a Premiership Cup game against Bath. His opposite number was Underhill, and Northampton prevailed 43-42.

A Premiership debut, from the bench against Leicester Tigers, arrived in November. As a mark of Pollock’s promise and progress, Saints aficionados believe his emergence can ease the burden of Lewis Ludlam’s impending departure. High praise.

Just before Christmas, having headed on loan to Bedford Blues in the Championship, Pollock topped up the reel with another rapid break-away from his own 22 against Ampthill.

Not that he seeks out these moments. Ben Earl is one man who needed to shed his reputation as a ‘highlight reel player’, whether it had been fairly or unfairly earned. Pollock is aware of the need to become a rounded operator.

“You can’t have a big highlight reel and then not do the basics well,” he says. “I don’t pride myself on the highlights; I pride myself on the stuff no one sees. That’s what wins games; tackling, ball-carrying, jackalling – the basic fundamentals I need in my locker.

“If you get too big-headed and think about the future, you’re not going to work on the basics. I pride myself on working on those everyday and staying grounded because, at the end of the day, you’re only as good as your next performance, no matter what’s happened in the past.”

Size, as well as application, could be another requisite for future success at senior level. Pollock received special attention during Northampton’s squad bulk this summer and believes he will eventually need to be bigger at the top level.

“There’s a bit of chat about slowly increasing [my weight],” he says. “I’m sitting at around 100kg [15st 10lbs] at the moment and I think they want me at 107 or 108kg [17st], just a little heavier so I can take more impact. Hopefully I won’t lose my speed during that process, but I trust the coaches at Saints.”

‘Even if you aren’t the biggest, it can seem like you are’
Fittingly, two of Pollock’s role models are flankers who punch above what the scales read. “Michael Hooper has always been someone I’ve looked up to. He got around the park and isn’t the biggest bloke. But he gave me the confidence that even if you aren’t the biggest guy on the pitch, it can seem like you are.

“I used to go and watch Saints games and the way Teimana Harrison carried, with loads of aggression and loads of fight, was also really inspiring.”

A sporty family must have provided a strong support network. Hester, Pollock’s mother, was a national-level triathlete. His sister, Zoe, is a serious 400m hurdler at the University of Georgia. Both father, John, and brother, Angus, are scratch golfers. Pollock reckons his handicap would be in the mid to late teens, yet does count a birdie on the 18th hole at Gleneagles on his swelling CV.

“It was a couple of years ago,” he laughs. “The round was going pretty well and I think I went with a three iron off the tee. The approach shot was decent; I stuck it pretty close. Then I worked the green pretty well and… just got the ball in the hole, mate. It was a surreal moment.”

The past year or so has felt surreal for Pollock, too. But the landmarks will not let up. Wales Under-20s opened their own Six Nations campaign by overturning Scotland 37-29. Pollock and his colleagues will have to be on their mettle this Friday.

“It’s about adapting to each new level,” he finishes. “Friday was my first taste of under-20. This weekend it’ll be about how I can back that performance up.”
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Which Tyler
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by Which Tyler »

Interview with Nat Catt (U20s scrum coach, and one of the coaches fronting the tight-five bootcamps)
https://www.rugby-addict.com/en/article ... 558e02f7d3

Some Bath bias early in the article name checking Sela and Kirk; then goes on to talk about AOF (sees him as a THP who can play LHP very well when it makes for a better unit), Carnduff and Pollock.
MrK
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by MrK »

Looking forward to this game tonight

We have decent combinations for a change in the U20s

Morse & De La Rua - 6/8
Green/Thomas at second row - at Quins and Leicester respectively
Ackerman / Hennessy - 12/13

And a couple of absolute monsters (for Wales) at Props (I know size isnt everything but Wales rarely produce "units" like this)

Id like to see us at least be competitive
twitchy
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Re: England U20 vs Bath

Post by twitchy »

Will this be streamed tonight?
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