Argentina tour

[Danno]

We are blessed with three good FHs. Would any of them benefit from touring Argentina? Arguably, if he's the future, Fin might, I suppose, if just to make progress with a different SH from Mitchell.

There's JvP, and Randall but only one of those is showing any form lately and still won't get a lions cap. We're still a bit scarce in SH stocks

[Scrumhead]

We are but JvP has really returned to form and is looking very good. Randall’s been in pretty good form and Spencer is still an option. Not an amazing drop, but not terrible either.

[FKAS]

JvP is looking very good at the minute. Is probably the Lions fifth choice 9 after JGP, Mitchell, Williams and White. Depending on selection criteria he might jump White (that would be harsh on White). Would make sense for him to tour Argentina.

Outside of JvP, Porter was good before injury. How long is he out for? Lucas Friday or Charlie Bracken in an apprentice position might be a goer. There's the USA game that month be used to rotate round the squad.

[Banquo]

We are but JvP has really returned to form and is looking very good. Randall’s been in pretty good form and Spencer is still an option. Not an amazing drop, but not terrible either.

Randall's been pretty poor the last two matches imo.

[Scrumhead]

JvP is looking very good at the minute. Is probably the Lions fifth choice 9 after JGP, Mitchell, Williams and White. Depending on selection criteria he might jump White (that would be harsh on White). Would make sense for him to tour Argentina.

Outside of JvP, Porter was good before injury. How long is he out for? Lucas Friday or Charlie Bracken in an apprentice position might be a goer. There's the USA game that month be used to rotate round the squad.

Friday’s done his ACL

[Puja]

There's the USA game that month be used to rotate round the squad.

Fully expecting us to bring Kepu Tuipulotu on tour, partly to give him experience in the senior environment, but also so we can give him a cap against the US and lock him down for a bit.

We are blessed with three good FHs. Would any of them benefit from touring Argentina? Arguably, if he's the future, Fin might, I suppose, if just to make progress with a different SH from Mitchell.

Based on current form, Ford should be the Lions back-up to Russell.

A summer off for Marcus would make sense, especially in terms of lining up No 4 in the ranking. Who though?

We couldn’t afford to be without all three. Based upon the England A squads Charlie Atkinson is next in line but I’m not at all convinced he’s a test level 10.

If Benson gets a few more games before the season ends, I could see him being in the A squad (possibly leapfrogging Atkinson).

Donoghue at Bath has come from nowhere and is looking very handy, but would be an A squad pick for me at the most right now.

Usually the U20s get a mention but I just eon’t think Coen or Bellamy are even close to being good enough.

Agreed with Scrumhead - while it might not be any benefit to our 3 fly-halves to tour Argentina, it would be of huge benefit to all of the other players we're hoping to try out on this summer tour. The quality difference down to our 4th fly-half is so large that picking someone else would almost invalidate the rest of the team. An argument could be made for Furbank at least being competent, but it's hardly a massive development opportunity to pick him there, so you may as well just pick Ford and have all the baby 12s get coached by him.

That's not to mention that the RWC draw is seeded based on the rankings at the end of this calendar year, we very much want to be in the top 6 to avoid having a pool of death, and Argentina are one of our main rivals for that ranking, so we ideally do not want to lose both tests to them.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Exactly. When one of our key aims is developing new centres, we need to be maximising their opportunity not limiting it by picking a debutant 10 who isn’t even first choice at club level.

That might sound a bit harsh on Charlie Atkinson but it wouldn’t be doing him any favours either.

[Puja]

Exactly. When one of our key aims is developing new centres, we need to be maximising their opportunity not limiting it by picking a debutant 10 who isn’t even first choice at club level.

That might sound a bit harsh on Charlie Atkinson but it wouldn’t be doing him any favours either.

Also would hardly be a useful development opporthnity to chuck arbitrary caps at someone who, frankly, seems highly unlikely to make it as an international 10.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Lots of sound opinion there but does that mean Marcus has to go despite looking shot mentally and physically?

The chances of neither Fin nor Ford going to Australia seem slight. What happens if both go?

Looking further ahead, with Marcus wavering and Ford a smidge injury-prone, do we really want to be looking at a FH debutant in the AIs or 6N? Maybe, Borthwick has to look at someone on this tour, even just as a bench option.

[fivepointer]

Best thing might be for Quins to stand him down for their last 3 games. They've nothing to play for and could give Benson some invaluable exposure. A few weeks off might do Marcus a ton of good.

[Scrumhead]

Lots of sound opinion there but does that mean Marcus has to go despite looking shot mentally and physically?

The chances of neither Fin nor Ford going to Australia seem slight. What happens if both go?

Looking further ahead, with Marcus wavering and Ford a smidge injury-prone, do we really want to be looking at a FH debutant in the AIs or 6N? Maybe, Borthwick has to look at someone on this tour, even just as a bench option.

The chances of neither going probably are slight. However, I think the chances of both going are very slim.

In the event that they are both selected, the big difference is that Marcus definitely goes to play 10. Ideally, he’d have the summer off, but OTOH, if he has a great tour back in the 10 jersey, it may have an equally restorative effect.

The situation I specifically want to avoid is Ford playing at 10 and Marcus being asked to play 15 again. I don’t think it does Marcus or England any favours and if that is the plan, I’d prefer that he stays home.

On the 4th choice 10 debate, I’d be much more comfortable with Furbank or even Slade or Lozowski (yes I know he’s injured) there than Atkinson.

Benson and Donoghue are timing their breakthroughs nicely for next season. This tour is too soon.

[Scrumhead]

Best thing might be for Quins to stand him down for their last 3 games. They've nothing to play for and could give Benson some invaluable exposure. A few weeks off might do Marcus a ton of good.

I could definitely get behind this.

[Puja]

Lots of sound opinion there but does that mean Marcus has to go despite looking shot mentally and physically?

...do we really want to be looking at a FH debutant in the AIs or 6N? Maybe, Borthwick has to look at someone on this tour, even just as a bench option.

If Fin and Ford go on the Lions, then yeah, he does. Might not be the absolute best thing for him, but it'd be our only option - the Argentina games are important in and of themselves and doubly important if we want to actually develop anyone else (rather trying to parse whether SAtkinson can step up to international level by giving him a chance in a calamitous clusterfuck of a backline). I can't imagine he'd be resistant, given that any injury callups for the Lions are unlikely to happen for players who have taken the summer off.

It's unlikely to be a situation though - Gatland Farrell will never pick Ford for the Lions, no matter how deserving he is.

If all of FSmith, MSmith, and Ford are unavailable for the AIs or 6N, then it's Furbank and prayer. If all 4 are unavailable, then we're screwed every which way - CAtkinson having three caps won't make it any less of a disaster. I would also like us to have more depth behind our big three, but the honest truth is that we don't have any, and chucking caps at never-will-bes won't change that.

Benson and Donoghue are timing their breakthroughs nicely for next season. This tour is too soon.

I had been under the impression that Donoghue was Irish through and through and was irked that the academy system was once again developing a young player for someone else. Went on a google to see if he had an English grandparent or something to facilitate a poach, only to discover that he was born in Salisbury and has been educated and lived in England pretty much his whole life!

I don't know if he's personally got any interest in playing for England or if he considers himself to be nothing but Irish because of his parents, but I really hope Snoops Birthplaces is having conversations with him about whether he'd accept a callup. I woudn't be keen on starting him against Argentina, given he's had a handful of Prem appearances, but he definitely looks worth investing in, especially since a much-reduced Ireland are touring Romania this summer and it might be a case of capping him now or never.

I really hope Orlando Bailey does go to Leicester this summer - partly because I would quite like my club to have at least one (1) fly-half next season - but also because there is definitely talent there and a season of being undisputed first choice somewhere, and the belief that gives him, could be just what he needs to kick on.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Best thing might be for Quins to stand him down for their last 3 games. They've nothing to play for and could give Benson some invaluable exposure. A few weeks off might do Marcus a ton of good.

I could definitely get behind this.

I just don’t see he or Quins viewing the possibility of the Lions tour as over, rightly or wrongly.

It’s a weird situation for him. His versatility and game-breaking ability is pretty special, but he just hasn’t had enough commanding performances recently.

[Oakboy]

Best thing might be for Quins to stand him down for their last 3 games. They've nothing to play for and could give Benson some invaluable exposure. A few weeks off might do Marcus a ton of good.

I could definitely get behind this.

I just don’t see he or Quins viewing the possibility of the Lions tour as over, rightly or wrongly.

It’s a weird situation for him. His versatility and game-breaking ability is pretty special, but he just hasn’t had enough commanding performances recently.

Maybe, his personal advisors should have warned him off ever playing at 15. Before doing that, he was our first choice FH.

[Puja]

Just done some more googling (yes, I should be working, why do you ask?) and Donoghue attended an England U18s alignment camp while at school, so he's presumably at least not actively repulsed by the idea of playing for England.

Wild how he's come from absolutely nowhere at the age of 22 - no age group caps that I can see (no involvement aside from that one U18's camp?!), only 4 Prem Cup subs appearances, totalling a grand sum of 58 minutes of senior rugby before this season, no Championship loans or experience - his dual-registration last season was in National League 2 West with Dings Crusaders! He did help get them promoted, mind, but even so! I'd be surprised if more than 2-3 people on this board even knew his name before this season, let alone expected him to start Premiership games - it's like he's sprung fully-formed from the head of Zeus!

With that in mind, I'm more aligned with Which's point on the Bath vs Newcastle thread that it's waaaaay too early to be seriously talkng about him as an international prospect - this could just be a fluke run of form which fades as quickly as it rose. Wouldn't mind him being in the touring squad so they can have a look at him, but that's a comment on the paucity of other options more than anything else.

Puja

[Banquo]

Best thing might be for Quins to stand him down for their last 3 games. They've nothing to play for and could give Benson some invaluable exposure. A few weeks off might do Marcus a ton of good.

Yes, be good to see benson start at 10 in a 'proper' game. Or 12

[Scrumhead]

Just done some more googling (yes, I should be working, why do you ask?) and Donoghue attended an England U18s alignment camp while at school, so he's presumably at least not actively repulsed by the idea of playing for England.

Wild how he's come from absolutely nowhere at the age of 22 - no age group caps that I can see (no involvement aside from that one U18's camp?!), only 4 Prem Cup subs appearances, totalling a grand sum of 58 minutes of senior rugby before this season, no Championship loans or experience - his dual-registration last season was in National League 2 West with Dings Crusaders! He did help get them promoted, mind, but even so! I'd be surprised if more than 2-3 people on this board even knew his name before this season, let alone expected him to start Premiership games - it's like he's sprung fully-formed from the head of Zeus!

With that in mind, I'm more aligned with Which's point on the Bath vs Newcastle thread that it's waaaaay too early to be seriously talkng about him as an international prospect - this could just be a fluke run of form which fades as quickly as it rose. Wouldn't mind him being in the touring squad so they can have a look at him, but that's a comment on the paucity of other options more than anything else.

Puja

Same here.

It’s unfortunate that the England XV (kind of England A) game against France will exclude players from the top 4 as Donoghue would have been a great shout for that. Perfect opportunity for Benson though.

[FKAS]

The rise of Donoghue does somewhat remind me of Billy Twelvetrees. Overlooked for age grade honours, almost put the door at Tigers then has a good season in the Championship in his early 20s gets brought back into the fold and almost immediately looks exciting at Prem level. Some just develop a bit later than others.

[FKAS]

I could definitely get behind this.

I just don’t see he or Quins viewing the possibility of the Lions tour as over, rightly or wrongly.

It’s a weird situation for him. His versatility and game-breaking ability is pretty special, but he just hasn’t had enough commanding performances recently.

Maybe, his personal advisors should have warned him off ever playing at 15. Before doing that, he was our first choice FH.

His form for Quins hasn't been as good this season and his performances for England were fantastic for the highlights reel but not great in terms of composure and game management. I don't think refusing to play 15 would have stopped Fin Smith from being given a go at 10.

A summer tour with England with Furbank at 15 might be good for Marcus. He wasn't playing badly at the weekend, his high balls were piss poor mind, just caught his ankle on a prop early and then struggled to break free from behind a pack increasingly losing the physical battle as the game went on.

[Mikey Brown]

I could definitely get behind this.

I just don’t see he or Quins viewing the possibility of the Lions tour as over, rightly or wrongly.

It’s a weird situation for him. His versatility and game-breaking ability is pretty special, but he just hasn’t had enough commanding performances recently.

Maybe, his personal advisors should have warned him off ever playing at 15. Before doing that, he was our first choice FH.

Yes, but GAME MANAGEMENT etc.

I’m not sure how you think the conversation should go when Borthwick wants to play Fin Smith or test Marcus out at 15. A flat out ‘no, I only play 10’?

I wonder if Owen Farrell often argued against playing 12.

[jngf]

Sorry if there is a thread already on this but I couldn't see one on the front page! I find a good way to summarise recent performances is to look forward to the next series.

Two tests in Argentina on 5 and 12 July. My squad below:

Lions: George, Genge, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, BCurry, TCurry, Earl, Mitchell, FSmith, MSmith, Freeman

Baxter
AOF
Obano

LCD
Dan

Heyes
Fasogbon

Coles
Clark
JHill

CCS
THill
Pollock
Pepper
TWillis
Fisalau

JvP
Quirke

Ford (c)
Slade

Dingwall
Beard
Ojomoh
SAtkinson

Sleightholme
Murley
Roebuck
Daly
Furbank
Hendy

Selection notes:

- It's unlikely Obano and SAtkinson get selected given the current pecking order - but I'll keep beating the drum for it...!
- I'm assuming we continue with the development of CCS and THill as locks hence only selecting three. Doing this exercise demonstrates the lack of quality depth at lock, fly half and centre (compared to back row and wing)!
- I wouldn't take Martin unless he is 100% - a summer off will be more beneficial for him. Likewise Underhill and IFW.
- In the back row, I have skipped a generation (Pearson and Kenningham) and opted to give Pepper and Fisalau experience due to our current depth.
- Back up 10 is very tricky - Slade has played a lot there so I have shoe horned him in giving me an extra centre slot!
- A physical centre could be a bolter in the absence of Lawrence and Freeman. Names that come to mind are Hartley and Wimbush but they haven't featured much this season so far.
- Wing selection is challenging - I'd have liked to include Elliott and Arundell (if available) but hard to put them in above the others listed.
- Steward given a summer off - I don't see him as first choice at 15 and extra time to work on his game in the offseason will be most beneficial. [/list][/list]

I would consider England look at the following on this tour:

(I) Try out both Pollock and Earl (if he’s not picked for Lions and I’m not as confident as many that he will be ) as a center partnership. Whose 12 and whose 13 is a moot point and whilst I’d be very happy with Earl starting at 7 so long as we have a complementary 6 and 8 - I’m concerned that Pollock risks the same fate as Tom Croft ie being asked to play as a conventional flanker rather than being played somewhere in the team that makes use of this X factor pace of his. Rather like Croft I think Pollock might be a great and gifted rugby athelete but not necessarily a great specialist forward as such at test level,especially in an England context which values dog, grunt and collision power over finesse.

(ii) Would be good to see more of CCS as an understudy to Itoje at lock and also as an alternative 8 option to Tom Willis ( whom I also rate highly btw though I think he’s a tighter, more close quarters focussed no.8 than CCS - who for me has a slightly more dynamic and looser/ wider channel running style but that’s just as powerful). Again I’m not certain Chessum will get a Lions call up and in that case a 4 CCS 5 Chessum lock pairing would make us a bit more future proof should Itoje not be available at any point post upcoming Lions Tour but before next RWC

[TheNomad]

Try out both Pollock and Earl (if he’s not picked for Lions and I’m not as confident as many that he will be ) as a center partnership.

I honestly can't tell if that's a joke or not. I understand your reservations: Pollock certainly needs to work on his core skills as a flanker i.e. breakdown, ruck etc.

But come on - he's very young, and it's not like he's not doing those things.

I'm also not a huge fan of CCS at lock. Not yet, anyway. I prefer him as a 6 or 8.

[Puja]

Croft's best international performances came when he was used as a conventional flanker with the Lions. He suffered from the same thing as Peter Crouch in football - football anagers saw a 6ft7 striker and put the ball to him in the air, when his main skills were with his feet, and rugby managers looked at a flanker with incredible pace and decided he should sit in the 13 channel all the time, when his main skills were traditional forwards ones.

Puja

[Banquo]

Croft's best international performances came when he was used as a conventional flanker with the Lions.
Puja

Only been saying this for over a decade. He was a great flanker. As luxury giraffes go. His 'problem' was a lot of seen work.