RugbyRebels

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 7:34 am Well they've lost Runcorn, so what change do you want to see in Labour and do you think it will prevent results like Runcorn happening again?

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:25 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 5:36 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:30 pm
Just another one of those people who know too much about the rich and powerful, killing themselves. Nothing suspicious there.

It seems she was a deeply troubled person (looking at her most recent media articles) so I wouldn’t rush to judgement.

We'll never know but her death is very convenient for numerous rich and powerful people.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 9:14 am

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 7:34 am Well they've lost Runcorn, so what change do you want to see in Labour and do you think it will prevent results like Runcorn happening again?

How about moving towards the centre ground, supporting the workers and the downtrodden - rather than trying to be Reform-Lite, now that the tories are re-continuing their attempt to be Reform-with-a-different-shade-of-blue?

Once they've moved back to the centre, then of course, my personal preference is to move to the actual left

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:24 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 9:14 am

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 7:34 am Well they've lost Runcorn, so what change do you want to see in Labour and do you think it will prevent results like Runcorn happening again?

How about moving towards the centre ground, supporting the workers and the downtrodden - rather than trying to be Reform-Lite, now that the tories are re-continuing their attempt to be Reform-with-a-different-shade-of-blue?

Once they've moved back to the centre, then of course, my personal preference is to move to the actual left

Farage is combining left and right wing policies, I don’t think that label is very helpful.

Labour should focus on competence. Start building the economy and have something concrete to point to. Perhaps put rejoining the EU on the table and watch the Conservatives and Reform melt down.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:20 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:24 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 9:14 am

How about moving towards the centre ground, supporting the workers and the downtrodden - rather than trying to be Reform-Lite, now that the tories are re-continuing their attempt to be Reform-with-a-different-shade-of-blue?

Once they've moved back to the centre, then of course, my personal preference is to move to the actual left

Farage is combining left and right wing policies, I don’t think that label is very helpful.

Labour should focus on competence. Start building the economy and have something concrete to point to. Perhaps put rejoining the EU on the table and watch the Conservatives and Reform melt down.

.

On competence, I think they may be doing the best they can.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:35 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:20 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:24 am

Farage is combining left and right wing policies, I don’t think that label is very helpful.

Labour should focus on competence. Start building the economy and have something concrete to point to. Perhaps put rejoining the EU on the table and watch the Conservatives and Reform melt down.

.

On competence, I think they may be doing the best they can.

Is that praise or faint praise based on the competency available? (though you also say a catastrophic 10 months, so I suppose I can guess).

Whats your view on 'more progressive taxation' ...raising thresholds, raising %ages or both?

Big issue for me...nobpdy has anything like a plan. Reform have a whinge list and nothing else; Lib Dems...no idea what they actually stand for--- and yet both have done very well in these votes.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 7:33 pm This was always going to be a protest vote, so good for Greens, Libs and Reform. The danger is this developing narrative that Refoem are the opposition now.

I do t think a move to the left will save Labour. Not all left policies are vote winners. Farage is using the uncertainty about what reform is to pick and choose. Can Labour do the same and be left on economics and right on social matters? Will that keep core Labour voters, ie working class and left leaning professionals on track? I don’t think the latter would be happy and might look to green instead.

Their best tack is to keep to the centre and let the Tories continue to drift. Be competent and start challenging reforms policies. Now reform have so many councils there will be plenty of ammunition available to point out their flaws.

Reform are already talking about a UK DOGE effect. Let’s see how well that goes down when local services collapse. I don’t think sacking DEI officers will be that noticeable, but widespread slash and burn will.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:18 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:35 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:20 pm
.

On competence, I think they may be doing the best they can.

Is that praise or faint praise based on the competency available? (though you also say a catastrophic 10 months, so I suppose I can guess).

Whats your view on 'more progressive taxation' ...raising thresholds, raising %ages or both?

Big issue for me...nobpdy has anything like a plan. Reform have a whinge list and nothing else; Lib Dems...no idea what they actually stand for--- and yet both have done very well in these votes.

I'm not really trying to praise or faint praise them. I'm taking competent to mean able to run their departments, enact policies etc without too many cockups or resignations, which they seem to be doing, so on that basis they seem to be broadly competent. Also, I'm not sure competence is something you can decide to do more of. Given that most of them haven't been in government before, they are meeting the bar for 'competence'.

What I'm not considering to be part of 'competence' are the big decisions about what direction to be taking government, the economy in, the left/right, progressive/regressive, equality/inequality choices. Obviously I think they're a disaster there.

More progressive taxation. There are lots of things that can be done here. The easy ones are equalising the tax treatment of different things eg taxing earned and unearned income the same, so taxing dividends and capital gains at the same rates as income tax. Then there's charging national insurance on things that don't attract it currently - unearned income. Then there's fixing national insurance so that it's not regressive at higher incomes, ie the top band should be at the top rate. Personally I'd simplify the system by removing NI completely and simply applying income tax (at an increased rate) on all income, earned and unearned. Ideally I'd also reduce the regressive VAT and increase income tax to make up for it.

As for tax levels (after all those changes), no doubt they would need some adjustment. I'd want something like the bottom 50% of the population paying less tax and the top 30% paying more. The idea is to genuinely reduce inequality, ie redistribute wealth.

Agreed, I don't see much of a plan.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 03, 2025 10:02 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:18 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 5:35 pm

Is that praise or faint praise based on the competency available? (though you also say a catastrophic 10 months, so I suppose I can guess).

Whats your view on 'more progressive taxation' ...raising thresholds, raising %ages or both?

Big issue for me...nobpdy has anything like a plan. Reform have a whinge list and nothing else; Lib Dems...no idea what they actually stand for--- and yet both have done very well in these votes.

I'm not really trying to praise or faint praise them. I'm taking competent to mean able to run their departments, enact policies etc without too many cockups or resignations, which they seem to be doing, so on that basis they seem to be broadly competent. Also, I'm not sure competence is something you can decide to do more of. Given that most of them haven't been in government before, they are meeting the bar for 'competence'.

What I'm not considering to be part of 'competence' are the big decisions about what direction to be taking government, the economy in, the left/right, progressive/regressive, equality/inequality choices. Obviously I think they're a disaster there.

More progressive taxation. There are lots of things that can be done here. The easy ones are equalising the tax treatment of different things eg taxing earned and unearned income the same, so taxing dividends and capital gains at the same rates as income tax. Then there's charging national insurance on things that don't attract it currently - unearned income. Then there's fixing national insurance so that it's not regressive at higher incomes, ie the top band should be at the top rate. Personally I'd simplify the system by removing NI completely and simply applying income tax (at an increased rate) on all income, earned and unearned. Ideally I'd also reduce the regressive VAT and increase income tax to make up for it.

As for tax levels (after all those changes), no doubt they would need some adjustment. I'd want something like the bottom 50% of the population paying less tax and the top 30% paying more. The idea is to genuinely reduce inequality, ie redistribute wealth.

Agreed, I don't see much of a plan.

So they are delivering bad policies competently
On taxes- have you or someone else (not expecting you to tbf) run the numbers on your proposals?

What’s certain is that we are pretty badly broken by any measure.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 11:11 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 03, 2025 10:02 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:18 pm
I'm not really trying to praise or faint praise them. I'm taking competent to mean able to run their departments, enact policies etc without too many cockups or resignations, which they seem to be doing, so on that basis they seem to be broadly competent. Also, I'm not sure competence is something you can decide to do more of. Given that most of them haven't been in government before, they are meeting the bar for 'competence'.

What I'm not considering to be part of 'competence' are the big decisions about what direction to be taking government, the economy in, the left/right, progressive/regressive, equality/inequality choices. Obviously I think they're a disaster there.

More progressive taxation. There are lots of things that can be done here. The easy ones are equalising the tax treatment of different things eg taxing earned and unearned income the same, so taxing dividends and capital gains at the same rates as income tax. Then there's charging national insurance on things that don't attract it currently - unearned income. Then there's fixing national insurance so that it's not regressive at higher incomes, ie the top band should be at the top rate. Personally I'd simplify the system by removing NI completely and simply applying income tax (at an increased rate) on all income, earned and unearned. Ideally I'd also reduce the regressive VAT and increase income tax to make up for it.

As for tax levels (after all those changes), no doubt they would need some adjustment. I'd want something like the bottom 50% of the population paying less tax and the top 30% paying more. The idea is to genuinely reduce inequality, ie redistribute wealth.

Agreed, I don't see much of a plan.

So they are delivering bad policies competently
On taxes- have you or someone else (not expecting you to tbf) run the numbers on your proposals?

What’s certain is that we are pretty badly broken by any measure.

Yeah, that's my take on it, they are reasonably competent at the day-to-day managing but incompetent (or misguided, self-serving or just plain wrong) on the big picture.

Some of these ideas and many more are looked at here:
https://taxingwealth.uk/
https://taxingwealth.uk/2023/09/06/weal ... in-the-uk/

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 11:23 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 11:11 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 03, 2025 10:02 am

So they are delivering bad policies competently
On taxes- have you or someone else (not expecting you to tbf) run the numbers on your proposals?

What’s certain is that we are pretty badly broken by any measure.

Yeah, that's my take on it, they are reasonably competent at the day-to-day managing but incompetent (or misguided, self-serving or just plain wrong) on the big picture.

Some of these ideas and many more are looked at here:
https://taxingwealth.uk/
https://taxingwealth.uk/2023/09/06/weal ... in-the-uk/

Cheers will have a look through, though I think 'reasonably competent' is a minimum standard (and not even achieved in some cases cough treasury cough.....)though lower bars have been set

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu May 01, 2025 7:31 pm I'm trying to decide whether I want Labour to lose the Runcorn and Helsby byelection to Reform.

If Labour win they'll think they're doing okay and will continue on the same course. Which is bad for us and for them (in 2029).

If they lose, who knows what their reaction will be? Ape Reform even more? Or realize (finally) that no matter how many Faragist arguments they make they can never out-Farage Farage?

I have a horrible feeling they'll see either result as a reason to tack right.

In the end though, a loss will be undeniable evidence that they are going wrong and is more likely to lead to change (and maybe sackings) and change could be for the better. So bring on the loss.

I was really clear that most prime ministers, after a disappointing set of results like that, would get in the warm bath of saying: ‘Well, it’s the electoral cycle, it was close.

I’m not going to do that. I think it’s really important that we indicate to voters that we get it.

I think we need to explain the decisions that we’ve taken. We had to stop the chaos, we had to stabilise our economy and that’s what we’ve done.

Danno wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 3:39 pm Lawyers will almost never admit they were wrong.

Danno wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 3:39 pm Lawyers will almost never admit they were wrong.

Puja wrote: ↑Thu May 08, 2025 10:51 pm In less notable news, the Greens are having a leadership election. Apparently they have it in their constitution that they're supposed to have one every two years, which seemed weird to me when I first heard it, but on further reflection actually seems quite sensible - means there's no need for things to get to a massive crisis before you can have a chance of direction and there's regular checks to make sure that the people in charge still represent the will of the party at large. I wonder whether the Labour party would still elect Starmer in a new leadership contest.

One of the candidates is making a bit of noise and is interesting - deputy leader Zack Polanski has said that the Greens need to be less timid and that the current void in British politics is one that they should be loudly stepping into. He's got a point - Farage plc have come in proudly saying that their aim is to kill the Conservative party and take over as the main party on the right of British politics, and it's working for them. With Labour currently engaged in trying to beat Reform to looting the corpse of the Tory party, there is an opportunity for a party with left wing policies. We need someone who can offer a Change option that's not the fascists-in-waiting, who can take the votes of people appalled about the government positions on Gaza, the environment, austerity, and immigration.

The Greens should be aiming to murder Labour in the same way Reform wants to kill the Conservatives, but they're standing politely to one side, quite pleasantly pleased about having 4 MPs, when they should be talking to people like Burgon, Long-Bailey, Sultana, McDonnell, Begum, Whittome and encouraging them to defect to start building the new home of the left wing. Hells, start with the 7 suspended from the whip for voting against the 2 child benefit cap, and then work their way through the list of the 42 who just wrote a letter to Starmer saying the planned benefit cuts are "impossible to support" (I can already tell them Starmer's answer - "I get it").

Puja

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 10:15 amWhether Polanski is the answer I don't know (he has a slightly embarrassing item in his past which the right wing press will endlessly remind him of should he ever become successful), but they do need to massively raise their profile. I think they are one charismatic leader away from making a breakthrough. Ramsey is never going to do it for them.

Puja wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 12:31 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 10:15 amWhether Polanski is the answer I don't know (he has a slightly embarrassing item in his past which the right wing press will endlessly remind him of should he ever become successful), but they do need to massively raise their profile. I think they are one charismatic leader away from making a breakthrough. Ramsey is never going to do it for them.

Ramsey and Denyer were excellent at doing what they were doing - polite, non-confrontational, middle-class, working in a very focussed local manner on winning particular constituencies, and gaining the belief of people in those constituencies that Green would not be a wasted vote (fighting against the traditional Lib Dem brochure of "No-one else can win here, it's us or the Tories!"). They've built roots in their four constituencies and will likely win those going forwards. But they are 100% not leaders of a national political party.

Denyer's made the decision that the best use of her time is to focus on being the best MP for Bristol Central that she can and cement it as a Green stronghold, which I think is an excellent decision and a very good use of her talents, and I would say Ramsey would be best doing the same, unless he's got a hidden reserve of showmanship that he's been keeping back for a special occasion.

I'll admit that I don't know enough about Polanski to know if he's the answer, but I don't think the boobs hypnotherapy thing is too much of a dealbreaker - if anyone cares deeply, he's apologised and explained and it was a decent distance in the past. It could even end up being the kind of weird and funny detail that's a votewinner, as the average spod would see it as a quirky harmless anecdote, and press harping on about it would give him notoriety to lift out of obscurity.

We'll see whether any other contenders/skeletons come out of the woodwork.

Puja