Why do we have such a poor record of producing quality 9s?

[Scrumhead]

Thinking ahead to the new season, I'm hoping that Maunder or Townsend can build upon the promise they showed last season, but I'm becoming increasingly resigned to the likelihood that barring injury, Youngs and Care will be our 9s in Japan.

To be honest, it's probably deserved too. Partially because (despite being inconsistent) both have the ability to put in match-winning performances and partially because nobody else has made a consistent enough challenge to be a real contender.

Over the past 6 or 7 years, only Wigglesworth has put up a sustained challenge which leads me to question why we seem to be so bad at producing quality 9s?

I'm in my mid 30s and despite Bracken and Dawson having their moments, I genuinely don't recall us having a consistently reliable and effective 9.

Even with the promise our age grade rugby has shown over the past few years, the 9s have generally been among the weakest links.

IMO, a good scrum half needs a to have a combination of the core skills - i.e. a good, quick pass (off both hands), a good sniping game and a good kicking game. Generally, I think our 9s are typically fairly good at one of these skills and downright poor at the other two.

2 Questions:

What are we doing wrong???

How much better would we be with a top quality 9?

[Stom]

Thinking ahead to the new season, I'm hoping that Maunder or Townsend can build upon the promise they showed last season, but I'm becoming increasingly resigned to the likelihood that barring injury, Youngs and Care will be our 9s in Japan.

To be honest, it's probably deserved too. Partially because (despite being inconsistent) both have the ability to put in match-winning performances and partially because nobody else has made a consistent enough challenge to be a real contender.

Over the past 6 or 7 years, only Wigglesworth has put up a sustained challenge which leads me to question why we seem to be so bad at producing quality 9s?

I'm in my mid 30s and despite Bracken and Dawson having their moments, I genuinely don't recall us having a consistently reliable and effective 9.

Even with the promise our age grade rugby has shown over the past few years, the 9s have generally been among the weakest links.

IMO, a good scrum half needs a to have a combination of the core skills - i.e. a good, quick pass (off both hands), a good sniping game and a good kicking game. Generally, I think our 9s are typically fairly good at one of these skills and downright poor at the other two.

2 Questions:

What are we doing wrong???

How much better would we be with a top quality 9?

When Conor Murray is most likely the 2nd best 9 in the world, you know the general standard of SH play has gone down. It's not that Murray is a bad player, I think he's very good, but 20 years ago he wouldn't be anywhere near where he is in the 9 pecking order.

But I think I know what the problem is, and as usual it lies with our cousins over in RL, or more precisely what we've taken as our major learning from them: defense.

9s don't just sweep anymore, they play an active role in the defensive game. And so 9s who can do so are picked over 9s who have a more traditional skill set. Care has a superior pass to Youngs, his passing is more consistent, he is at a similar level ball in hand, but his kicking is not as good and his defense is far weaker. So Youngs is the 9, and Care the 21.

[bitts]

I'd say your scanting Dawson a little. He was a very good SH.Certainly compared to what came after.

Part of it probably comes down to scrum halfs not getting as much game time when they are 19-21 in the prem. Basically, it seems they have to be absolutely amazing to get any game time. For example, Heinz is keeping out Braley and Randell at Glos (they also have a young scot on the books at SH).

At Bath, Will Homer is behind two average players and KHAN!

At Exceter, Maunder and Townsend have had to get past Chudly and will now have White to contend with.

Alex Mitchell is behind Kessel at Saints, and I believe they've also signed a South African from Sharks.

Are there any other prospects? If so, are they getting game time?

[Scrumhead]

Well this is pretty much why I said we have a poor record of 'producing' good 9s.

Looking back at recent age-grade teams the results are very mixed. Cook, Robson and Spencer are all familiar names but none have really put their hands up over an extended period of time to challenge Youngs and Care.

Henry Taylor and Braley (to a lesser extent) don't really get any game time and Townsend is only just getting some now 3 years or so after he played at U20 level. Now he and Maunder have White and a fit Chudley to compete with.

Alex Mitchell looked very promising at the U20 World Cup, but as bitts said, he's behind Reinach, and Kessel at Saints. Even disregarding the players In front of Randall, I just think he's too small.

Others like Simpson and Harrison just aren't really good enough. James Mitchell didn't look up to much at Sale and has now left for Connacht to try his luck in the Irish system (he's Irish qualified).

[Tigersman]

Eddie has dropped the ball not giving Robson a chance IMO.


Tigers have two very different but very promising 9's in Ben White and Harry simmons.
White --> More a traditional 9 whereas Simmons has that Ben youngs ability of making breaks he also plays 10 and 15.

Hoping one takes over from Kitto this year.

[Puja]

Eddie has dropped the ball not giving Robson a chance IMO.


Tigers have two very different but very promising 9's in Ben White and Harry simmons.
White --> More a traditional 9 whereas Simmons has that Ben youngs ability of making breaks he also plays 10 and 15.

Hoping one takes over from Kitto this year.

I just don't see Robson as being any improvement on Youngs/Care. He offers some moments of brilliance, some moments of adequacy and some moments of "Jesus Christ, Dan!", same as Spencer.

Is Kitto definitely staying? I thought he was on O'Connor's list to clear out.

Puja

[Oakboy]

The question for me is whether current coaching hampers SH development. Basically, SHs are encouraged to kick too much. The default requirement of a fast, accurate pass to the FH seems to have dropped down the priority list. As long as that is the case there is little hope.

[fivepointer]

Its such a key position that coaches are probably less inclined to give young players a chance. A malfunctioning SH can really screw a team up, so coaches are wary about trusting a youngster, or giving them a bit of a run to gain confidence. Admittedly Maunder bucks the trend, but he is very unusual. 19 year old SHs are not normally a feature in the Premiership, or in the England squad. As with all player development, game time in pressurised situations is vital to their progress. Looking around the Prem squads, there arent that many young EQ SH's that do get much game time.
On the players available, i thought Robson should have seen some England action last season. His form did tail off a bit during the 2nd half of the season, but for quite a time he was comfortably the best SH in England. I think Eddie did miss a trick by not getting him in the squad.

[Puja]

Its such a key position that coaches are probably less inclined to give young players a chance. A malfunctioning SH can really screw a team up, so coaches are wary about trusting a youngster, or giving them a bit of a run to gain confidence. Admittedly Maunder bucks the trend, but he is very unusual. 19 year old SHs are not normally a feature in the Premiership, or in the England squad. As with all player development, game time in pressurised situations is vital to their progress. Looking around the Prem squads, there arent that many young EQ SH's that do get much game time.
On the players available, i thought Robson should have seen some England action last season. His form did tail off a bit during the 2nd half of the season, but for quite a time he was comfortably the best SH in England. I think Eddie did miss a trick by not getting him in the squad.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's an awful lot of foreign scrum-half dross in the AP last year, because clubs would rather have a strong and stable Heinz, Phillips, Groom, Matthewson, Fotuali'i, or Tipuna. Now, I'm not saying that Braley, Mitchell, Mitchell, Cliff, Homer or Egerton would necessarily have done better, but for 6 of the Premiership clubs to be starting foreign 9s is pretty telling.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Its such a key position that coaches are probably less inclined to give young players a chance. A malfunctioning SH can really screw a team up, so coaches are wary about trusting a youngster, or giving them a bit of a run to gain confidence. Admittedly Maunder bucks the trend, but he is very unusual. 19 year old SHs are not normally a feature in the Premiership, or in the England squad. As with all player development, game time in pressurised situations is vital to their progress. Looking around the Prem squads, there arent that many young EQ SH's that do get much game time.
On the players available, i thought Robson should have seen some England action last season. His form did tail off a bit during the 2nd half of the season, but for quite a time he was comfortably the best SH in England. I think Eddie did miss a trick by not getting him in the squad.

Hard to disagree with any of this.

I can understand why Robson hasn't been picked, but it's also a risk to rely on just two experienced players.

Wigglesworth is getting too old to be a realistic option, so if Youngs and Care were to be injured at the same time, Maunder's 4mins suddenly make him our only other 9 with test experience which seems ridiculous.

We have two full seasons and less than 20 tests between now and the World Cup so if we're going to think about introducing new blood, we haven't got all that much time.

It's probably still between Maunder, Townsend, Spencer and Robson although all but the later will struggle for game time which gives no real opportunity to build form or state a genuine case.

[Scrumhead]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's an awful lot of foreign scrum-half dross in the AP last year, because clubs would rather have a strong and stable Heinz, Phillips, Groom, Matthewson, Fotuali'i, or Tipuna. Now, I'm not saying that Braley, Mitchell, Mitchell, Cliff, Homer or Egerton would necessarily have done better, but for 6 of the Premiership clubs to be starting foreign 9s is pretty telling.

Puja

Probably more like 8 next season too ...

Bath - Fotuali'i (Samoa)
Exeter - White (Australia)
Gloucester - Heinz (New Zealand)*
Harlequins - Care
Leicester - Youngs
London Irish - McKibbin (Australia)
Newcastle - Takalua (Tonga)
Northampton - Reinach (South Africa)
Sale - De Klerk (South Africa)
Saracens - Wigglesworth
Wasps - Robson/Simpson
Worcester - Hougaard (South Africa)

*I know Heinz is EQ

What makes it worse is that a decent number of the second choices are also foreign!

[Puja]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's an awful lot of foreign scrum-half dross in the AP last year, because clubs would rather have a strong and stable Heinz, Phillips, Groom, Matthewson, Fotuali'i, or Tipuna. Now, I'm not saying that Braley, Mitchell, Mitchell, Cliff, Homer or Egerton would necessarily have done better, but for 6 of the Premiership clubs to be starting foreign 9s is pretty telling.

Puja

Probably more like 8 next season too ...

Bath - Fotuali'i (Samoa)
Exeter - White (Australia)
Gloucester - Heinz (New Zealand)*
Harlequins - Care
Leicester - Youngs
London Irish - McKibbin (Australia)
Newcastle - Takalua (Tonga)
Northampton - Reinach (South Africa)
Sale - De Klerk (South Africa)
Saracens - Wigglesworth
Wasps - Robson/Simpson
Worcester - Hougaard (South Africa)

*I know Heinz is EQ

What makes it worse is that a decent number of the second choices are also foreign!

And I missed Hougaard from last season as well!

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Personally, I'd quite like to see the RFU taking a bit more of a proactive stance - a bit like how Ulster were made to sign Cooney instead of extending Pienaar's contract.

I know it's different in Ireland/the Pro12 but I'd like it if there was more of an onus on our clubs to bring through you English talent - particularly if we have a specific weakness - i.e. Scrum Half.

[Banquo]

Personally, I'd quite like to see the RFU taking a bit more of a proactive stance - a bit like how Ulster were made to sign Cooney instead of extending Pienaar's contract.

I know it's different in Ireland/the Pro12 but I'd like it if there was more of an onus on our clubs to bring through you English talent - particularly if we have a specific weakness - i.e. Scrum Half.

How? not that I disagree.......

[Puja]

Personally, I'd quite like to see the RFU taking a bit more of a proactive stance - a bit like how Ulster were made to sign Cooney instead of extending Pienaar's contract.

I know it's different in Ireland/the Pro12 but I'd like it if there was more of an onus on our clubs to bring through you English talent - particularly if we have a specific weakness - i.e. Scrum Half.

How? not that I disagree.......

Bribery has always been the traditional route to the clubs' hearts.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I don't know? I suspect it would need to be linked to some kind of financial incentive.

Perhaps they could link it to the payments the club get for EQPs or fo players in the EPS?

Could they agree some kind of clause where if a player under 23 is called in to the EPS, the club has to agree to giving them a certain amount of minutes per season?

That's not going to help someone like Ben Spencer who's knocking on 25 and still trying to break through, but it might help the likes of Maunder or Townsend.

[Scrumhead]

Haha - Puja was 1min ahead of me there ...

[Peat]

I don't think there's any bribe on earth that will make the PRL clubs give up the ability to keep guys like Pienaar when they want.


Tbh I think people looking only at English 9s are missing a bigger picture. In Puja's words, most of the foreign 9s are dross. The Irish make our scrum-half production look golden. South Africa don't look too smart now FdP is gone, nor have Australia responded that well to Genia losing form.

Either playing the position these days is a lot harder than people give it credit for, or we are in a strange lull of non-production in the position. Or a bit of both.

[Scrumhead]

I take your point Peat.

It's pretty much Aaron Smith ... daylight and then Murray, Perenara and Webb with Youngs, Laidlaw, Genia etc. on the third rung.

All I want is an Scrum Half that has (in order of preference) a good pass off both hands and a reasonable sniping threat and a decent box kicking game.

[Banquo]

I don't know? I suspect it would need to be linked to some kind of financial incentive.

Perhaps they could link it to the payments the club get for EQPs or fo players in the EPS?

Could they agree some kind of clause where if a player under 23 is called in to the EPS, the club has to agree to giving them a certain amount of minutes per season?

That's not going to help someone like Ben Spencer who's knocking on 25 and still trying to break through, but it might help the likes of Maunder or Townsend.

.....doesnt especially help promote getting 9's through though.....I suppose you could create 9 premium, but a tad convoluted.

[Banquo]

I take your point Peat.

It's pretty much Aaron Smith ... daylight and then Murray, Perenara and Webb with Youngs, Laidlaw, Genia etc. on the third rung.

All I want is an Scrum Half that has (in order of preference) a good pass off both hands and a reasonable sniping threat and a decent box kicking game.

Bit harsh on Genia, tho he hasn't been at his best, its true.

[Stom]

I take your point Peat.

It's pretty much Aaron Smith ... daylight and then Murray, Perenara and Webb with Youngs, Laidlaw, Genia etc. on the third rung.

All I want is an Scrum Half that has (in order of preference) a good pass off both hands and a reasonable sniping threat and a decent box kicking game.

Webb is nowhere near Murray or Perenara, or Genia. I'd have him behind Pienaar and Youngs, too. But I don't watch much Pro12 and his performances for Wales are probably limited by tictacs, so he may be a bit better than I think. He's still a chav.

And I'm not saying he's bad, just not good.

Like Ben Youngs: He's not really all that bad, it's just incredibly frustrating that, after half a decade of saying: can't we do better than Youngs?, we still have him as #1, with no challenger within 50 light years...

[Peat]

For me, the frustrating thing about Youngs is he's still very close to being the same player that first toured with England as a 21 year old tyro, still clearly a bit raw but with so much promise. If anything, he's regressed a little - I don't think he plays as quick as he once did. His pass is more accurate but, as much as I defend it from the hyperbole, still at a standard where you wonder what on earth pros do all day. Box kicking's improved a lot though, give him that.

Ben Youngs is the poster boy for a generation of English players that seemed to stop improving the moment they got an England cap, no matter how many holes there were in their game i.e. plenty.

And he goes unthreatened in an England shirt because his rivals are of the same ilk. If Danny Care had ever learnt to box kick to the same standard, they'd be a lot closer. Simpson didn't really seem to put it all together until he was 25 or so. Robson... I haven't seen enough of him recently but I believe the basic refrain about consistency. That's the other thing that's bedevilled a generation of English backs, all the tools but not enough rugby intelligence to consistently pick the right one. It'd be very tempting to say there's too much time in the gym and doing what coaches say and not enough playing rugby and making their own decisions. I don't have enough evidence that this is true to say it, but it does add up.

Also, Webb is poo, and trust no one who says otherwise. The memory of him staring at the ball like it was the first time he'd seen a tit as a teenager in our 22 this year, not to mention him throwing a suicide ball the wrong way after that massive Welsh break the year before that, lives with me. Another guy who seems to have all the tools but no box in which to put them.

[Scrumhead]

I agree on Youngs. Perhaps not as bad as we make out, just disappointingly poor at some of the most basic aspects of scrum half play.

The real question for me is why we seem incapable of producing 9s with really strong basics? Good decision making and an instinct for sniping are more natural attributes but surely passing and kicking are things that can be trained and honed to a better standard?

On paper, Youngs at 21 had the perfect blueprint. Talent, good instincts and plenty of time to improve/refine his basic skills. As Peat said, the frustration with Youngs is that 6/7 years on, he still hasn't really improved at all. His box kicking has got better but the drop off in quick play negates any real gain.

[Oakboy]

The oddest factor of all is that there is a real opportunity for someone. You'd think SH would be the most popular position for teenagers in the circumstances.