England goals for 2017/18 season

[Scrumhead]

With the Lions tour over and the new season not far off, what should England's realistic goals be for the new season?

I think we should be aiming to:

1) Win all three AIs. We know we can beat Argentina, Australia and Samoa, so I'm hoping Eddie sticks to his plan to rest most/all of our Lions tourists and continue building some additional depth/more competition for places.

2) Win the 6 Nations (preferably via a grand slam). Even without the slam, we'd be the first country to win three on the bounce and I think it is definitely achievable. I'm also hoping for an improved level of performance becasue TBH, last time out we were only genuinely good in one game.

3) Confidently nail down 90% of the World Cup squad. Eddie said he had 75% inked-in earlier this summer and I think another year should give us the next 15%, with the remaining 10% being the marginal calls/form picks in 2019. I'd like to see some clear-cut choices on a third choice 9, our flankers and a decision at 15 (i.e. If not Brown - who?). Arguably we need another winger, but I'd regard this as less of an immediate priority.

4) Make a decision on Hartley ... not much to add on this that hasn't already been said, but George is ready take over as a starter and with a more established leadership group in place now, his value as a leader is less important.

If we can achieve those four aims in 2017/18 we'll be nicely positioned heading in to the final season before the World Cup.

Thoughts?

[Mikey Brown]

That seems like a decent set of goals, and surprisingly achievable too.

Hartley already confirmed on Twitter he'll be moving aside for George so that's one problem sorted.

I'm hoping some clarity will come on the 12 shirt via the resting of Lions players. Though I guess if Teo gets a run and doesn't cut it we haven't moved forwards, and it may be quite late for anyone else to get in there.

[Puja]

I'd agree with most of that, especially with having the RWC squad mostly sorted by the end of the international season. I expect most of that to be done in the AIs, tbh - we should be saying goodbye to Haskell and Wood, with Underhill, Curry, Curry, and Wilson fighting over who plays next to Robshaw, we should be getting to see who impressed Eddie at 12 with Farrell being rested, and we should really be seeing George start.

Puja

[Puja]

That seems like a decent set of goals, and surprisingly achievable too.

Hartley already confirmed on Twitter he'll be moving aside for George so that's one problem sorted.

I'm hoping some clarity will come on the 12 shirt via the resting of Lions players. Though I guess if Teo gets a run and doesn't cut it we haven't moved forwards, and it may be quite late for anyone else to get in there.

Sorry, what?! Where?! When?!

Was this something everyone else knew and is already blase about?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I assume MB is referring to the Twitter poll where Hartley voted for Itoje to take over as captain. Definitely tongue in cheek.

[Mellsblue]

That seems like a decent set of goals, and surprisingly achievable too.

Hartley already confirmed on Twitter he'll be moving aside for George so that's one problem sorted.

I'm hoping some clarity will come on the 12 shirt via the resting of Lions players. Though I guess if Teo gets a run and doesn't cut it we haven't moved forwards, and it may be quite late for anyone else to get in there.

Sorry, what?! Where?! When?!

Was this something everyone else knew and is already blase about?

Puja

I'm not a Twatterer but I've seen somewhere that a civilian twatted that post the Lions Hartley should step aside for George. Hartley flippantly replied that as a civilian said so he would do so.

[Mellsblue]

Nearly. In the era of fake news I'll class my previous post as 100% correct.

[Puja]

Okay, that response has made me respect Hartley a little.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I think we have to find an extra 10% at least in average performance level but, perhaps more importantly, we need to find how to win the vital games. We are more or less at the point where personnel changes are too late. It is all about Eddie building the winning mentality. I hope Eddie will forget his AI rest idea.

[fivepointer]

Win the AI's - yep, even with some experimentation we should manage that.
6Ns win - attainable. we have 3 away games with very tricky encounters in France and Scotland though.
WC squad development - definitely. Eddie should be most of the way there by the end of the season. Time to discard a few players and make some tough calls on certain positions.
Hartley - yep. He's done his job but better players are available and should now be given the starting role.

I'd add that I'd like to see more consistency in our play and a far better conversion rate of chances created .
Also, want to see Sinckler start 2 or 3 games, Watson moved to FB, a 3rd SH incorporated into the squad and a more balanced back row.

Lastly we go to SA for 3 games next summer. Winning over there would be the cherry on the cake.

[Banquo]

I think we have to find an extra 10% at least in average performance level but, perhaps more importantly, we need to find how to win the vital games. We are more or less at the point where personnel changes are too late. It is all about Eddie building the winning mentality. I hope Eddie will forget his AI rest idea.

I think he has made good strides towards that, given he has won 19 of 20.....and have shown the ability to win when not playing well. Ireland showed up fault lines, obviously.

I absolutely do not agree that its too late for personnel changes.

[Oakboy]

I think we have to find an extra 10% at least in average performance level but, perhaps more importantly, we need to find how to win the vital games. We are more or less at the point where personnel changes are too late. It is all about Eddie building the winning mentality. I hope Eddie will forget his AI rest idea.

I think he has made good strides towards that, given he has won 19 of 20.....and have shown the ability to win when not playing well. Ireland showed up fault lines, obviously.

I absolutely do not agree that its too late for personnel changes.

Yes, you have always been consistent on that viewpoint.

I think Eddie has to decide between spending time on improving what he's got or admitting the only way to improve the team unit is to change certain players. I doubt we will see many surprises, if any, in his first choice 23 over the next 2 years/20 matches. I think there is more scope for him in improving those already blooded.

As always, "I wouldn't be starting from here", comes to mind but Eddie appears happy with Youngs at 9, Farrell at 12, Haskell at 7 etc. How will anybody get real chances (i.e. a run of at least 3 meaningful/competitive games) to snatch the shirts? The 'either/or' choices at 1-5 are juggling with the existing squad. Brown? Eddie would pick him, Watson and Daly for a match tomorrow with Nowell on the bench, I'd guess.

At best, there is competition for places well down the pecking order in the EPS.

[Hucks]

additional objectives:

- sort out the 15 shirt. Brown goes to japan. But as 1st choice?! and post-japan, what then? not a current glut of options. watson seems the obvious one to start bedding in. woodward or tom marshall might be a bit far-fetched

- work out what to do with daly. fats becoming a guy you have ot have in the side. but is he really best used on the wing? what if May plays to his best? or earle comes steaming through? Does JJ really have ownership of the 13 shirt, or should daly be eyeing that, with Marchant pushing JJ?

- work out how 4 goes into 3 from itoje, kruis, lawes & launchbury when all are firing. hard to leave any out. still fancy the idea of bedding lawes or itoje in at 6

- decide if slade has an england future, and where from 10-13.

- work out what to do with te'o - who's obviously got something about him. is he a 12 or 13? if 12, he'll never be a starter. if 13, he's a totally different style to every other player.

- decide if england careers are over before they started for robson, tompkins etc.

[Mikey Brown]

Why would Teo never be a starter?

I still don't particularly like his selection and think he is a very limited player but he does offer something that would really benefit the rest of the team. I don't see why we'd even be thinking about him as a 13.

If all 4 locks are totally fit and firing by the time we go to Japan then great. Not sure I'd mind an awful lot who makes it and who doesn't. They'll all know there is a class player ready to step in if they don't perform.

[Banquo]

Why would Teo never be a starter?

I still don't particularly like his selection and think he is a very limited player but he does offer something that would really benefit the rest of the team. I don't see why we'd even be thinking about him as a 13.

If all 4 locks are totally fit and firing by the time we go to Japan then great. Not sure I'd mind an awful lot who makes it and who doesn't. They'll all know there is a class player ready to step in if they don't perform.

VERY limited.....in what way?

[Mikey Brown]

Okay, maybe a bit harsh, but I have doubts about his vision and ability to vary his game. This may have just been shown up recently by some incredibly poor support play when he has made linebreaks. I guess we're not used to a 12 that threatens the line.

I suppose I was, probably unfairly, bundling his age in with his limitations as a long-term option.

[Banquo]

Okay, maybe a bit harsh, but I have doubts about his vision and ability to vary his game. This may have just been shown up recently by some incredibly poor support play when he has made linebreaks. I guess we're not used to a 12 that threatens the line.

I suppose I was, probably unfairly, bundling his age in with his limitations as a long-term option.

Seems to have a lot of ability to me- possibly hasn't got much of a long passing game, but then again, maybe we just haven't seen it. He can split good defences though, and defend, so not a bad start point....and a trade up from the incumbent if we want to hold and beat defences up the middle.

[Mellsblue]

Okay, maybe a bit harsh, but I have doubts about his vision and ability to vary his game. This may have just been shown up recently by some incredibly poor support play when he has made linebreaks. I guess we're not used to a 12 that threatens the line.

I suppose I was, probably unfairly, bundling his age in with his limitations as a long-term option.

Seems to have a lot of ability to me- possibly hasn't got much of a long passing game, but then again, maybe we just haven't seen it. He can split good defences though, and defend, so not a bad start point....and a trade up from the incumbent if we want to hold and beat defences up the middle.

Can't see Farrell being dropped............if you had to choose Ford - Farrell v Farrell - Te'o?

[Mikey Brown]

I said ability to vary his game, not ability. You're right though, he may well have more in the locker and what he has offered going forwards (it feels weird to use this hideous corporate term, even though I mean it literally) has looked like a real asset.

[Scrumhead]

Okay, maybe a bit harsh, but I have doubts about his vision and ability to vary his game. This may have just been shown up recently by some incredibly poor support play when he has made linebreaks. I guess we're not used to a 12 that threatens the line.

I suppose I was, probably unfairly, bundling his age in with his limitations as a long-term option.

The bolded part may have been accurate for the Lions but I don't think that's representative of England.

TBH, we haven't seen enough of him at 12 to make a particularly informed judgement, but it's not really true of fair to criticise England players for not supporting linebreaks from Te'o when he hasn't really been used in that role.

[Puja]

Okay, maybe a bit harsh, but I have doubts about his vision and ability to vary his game. This may have just been shown up recently by some incredibly poor support play when he has made linebreaks. I guess we're not used to a 12 that threatens the line.

I suppose I was, probably unfairly, bundling his age in with his limitations as a long-term option.

Seems to have a lot of ability to me- possibly hasn't got much of a long passing game, but then again, maybe we just haven't seen it. He can split good defences though, and defend, so not a bad start point....and a trade up from the incumbent if we want to hold and beat defences up the middle.

Given that most of our attacking play has revolved around having two lines of attack, with the 12 stationed behind for the pull-back so he can distribute wide, not having a long passing game seems like a bit of a drawback to me!

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I think we have to find an extra 10% at least in average performance level but, perhaps more importantly, we need to find how to win the vital games. We are more or less at the point where personnel changes are too late. It is all about Eddie building the winning mentality. I hope Eddie will forget his AI rest idea.

Surely there can't be any serious doubt over whether Eddie has instilled a 'winning mentality'. The results speak for themselves.

I do agree that the performance level hasn't always been at the level it needs to be and at times but we've found ways to get out of jail and win tight games (Wales and France in the 6N spring to mind). I'm convinced we would not have won those games under Lancaster.

Personnel wise, I don't expect massive changes at all. Barring injury, I think 11 of the starting XV is pretty much nailed down and with the exception of the players competing for the 7 shirt, the 4 spots up for debate would likely be between existing EPS members i.e. the back three could conceivably include any of Brown, Daly, May, Nowell or Watson.

I think it would take a lot for an as yet uncapped player to really force their way in to the mix this season. Ben Curry or Joe Marchant maybe?

[Banquo]

Okay, maybe a bit harsh, but I have doubts about his vision and ability to vary his game. This may have just been shown up recently by some incredibly poor support play when he has made linebreaks. I guess we're not used to a 12 that threatens the line.

I suppose I was, probably unfairly, bundling his age in with his limitations as a long-term option.

Seems to have a lot of ability to me- possibly hasn't got much of a long passing game, but then again, maybe we just haven't seen it. He can split good defences though, and defend, so not a bad start point....and a trade up from the incumbent if we want to hold and beat defences up the middle.

Given that most of our attacking play has revolved around having two lines of attack, with the 12 stationed behind for the pull-back so he can distribute wide, not having a long passing game seems like a bit of a drawback to me!

Puja

Take the point...but
a- we don't know whether he can or can't- I'd bet he can, you don't survive in League without good passing ability
b- that attacking play was geared around having Faz at 12 (ergo no running threat)....Eddie plays with what he has, so no doubt would have a bit of a change up

[Banquo]

I think we have to find an extra 10% at least in average performance level but, perhaps more importantly, we need to find how to win the vital games. We are more or less at the point where personnel changes are too late. It is all about Eddie building the winning mentality. I hope Eddie will forget his AI rest idea.

Surely there can't be any serious doubt over whether Eddie has instilled a 'winning mentality'. The results speak for themselves.

I do agree that the performance level hasn't always been at the level it needs to be and at times but we've found ways to get out of jail and win tight games (Wales and France in the 6N spring to mind). I'm convinced we would not have won those games under Lancaster.

Personnel wise, I don't expect massive changes at all. Barring injury, I think 11 of the starting XV is pretty much nailed down and with the exception of the players competing for the 7 shirt, the 4 spots up for debate would likely be between existing EPS members i.e. the back three could conceivably include any of Brown, Daly, May, Nowell or Watson.

I think it would take a lot for an as yet uncapped player to really force their way in to the mix this season. Ben Curry or Joe Marchant maybe?

I think we need a trade up in every unit of the team tbh, bar possibly lock- though some 'solutions' are already there.

[Oakboy]

Surely there can't be any serious doubt over whether Eddie has instilled a 'winning mentality'. The results speak for themselves.

You can also argue that in the one competitive match where the result was everything, we lost. Not only did we lose but half the team seriously underperformed. On the day, quite a few did not look fully up for it. I think there is significant room for improvement in individual performance, decision-making and collective character. That team with that performance can't win the RWC. Oddly enough, I think that those same players might have a chance. So, IMO, Eddie has a way to go with 'winning mentality'.