Hayward gone!

[normanski]

The WRU have announced today that Byron Hayward has resigned (pushed?) as defence coach.

This must be a step forward for the longer term if we are to right the ship.

Can’t see much success coming from the next three or four games.

Still if you’re at the bottom of the pile (hopefully) the only way is up.

[Sandydragon]

Good start for the new coaching team!

I’m not sure if sacking the defence coach is the solution though. In the last few games we have been stuffed up front, it’s hard to defend when your forwards are under the cosh.

I hope our entire coaching team learn from this experience as I’m also concerned that our current policy in attack means we are struggling to get quick ball. I have very low expectations for the next few weeks, but if we can see some development and blood some new players then we have achieved something to build on.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Strange. Our defence isn't the main problem. And Hayward was good for the Scarlets. Very odd for him to leave in the middle of the Autumn matches. How are we going to be better with no defence coach?? Maybe they'll just show the team old videos of Shaun Edwards instead.

[Sandydragon]

Strange. Our defence isn't the main problem. And Hayward was good for the Scarlets. Very odd for him to leave in the middle of the Autumn matches. How are we going to be better with no defence coach?? Maybe they'll just show the team old videos of Shaun Edwards instead.

Our defence was leaking more tries even with Edwards in charge and I don't think we were that much worse than anyone else in the 6N (barring Italy of course).

Our bigger issue was that we were bullied up front and couldn't get quality ball to attack with.

[Sandydragon]

We shipped 98 points in the 6N, which is better than France and Ireland. That included 11 tries, the same as Ireland and better than France (13 tries).

We also scored 13 tries, which is one less than England and 4 less than Ireland and France. Scotland had the best defence, but also the worst attack (again ignoring Italy).

My feel gin has not been that our defence was poor, it was pretty average for the competition (I'm deliberately not counting that warm up game against France where we looked very off colour). Not as good as at out best under Edwards, but I feel those days have gone.

I'd suggest where we performed so poorly in the six nations are:
Quality possession when in good position
Struggling to make yards through hard carries to build momentum
Poor discipline/ mistakes at crucial moments.

I don't think Hayward is at fault for any of that.

[Digby]

What options do you have for adding carriers into the pack and into midfield? And then one other what options do you have to replace Tipuric?

And I ask the latter because from the outside if you're going to struggle with the power game in the pack there are things that can be done such as playing Faletau at 7 with a Moriarty or whoever coming in at 8. Clearly Tips makes any XV on the basis of picking best players, but given where Wales are with selection and tactics does he make a XV if picking the best team?

If additional power isn't going to be sought then the passing at 9, 10, 12 and 13 comes under review for me, and it that means something like a 2nd 5/8th coming in what does that do to the options in defence?

[Sandydragon]

What options do you have for adding carriers into the pack and into midfield? And then one other what options do you have to replace Tipuric?

And I ask the latter because from the outside if you're going to struggle with the power game in the pack there are things that can be done such as playing Faletau at 7 with a Moriarty or whoever coming in at 8. Clearly Tips makes any XV on the basis of picking best players, but given where Wales are with selection and tactics does he make a XV if picking the best team?

If additional power isn't going to be sought then the passing at 9, 10, 12 and 13 comes under review for me, and it that means something like a 2nd 5/8th coming in what does that do to the options in defence?

Good questions.

Owens is a good carrier at hooker, along with Parry.

In the second row we have Ball and Rowlands. IF AWJ is going to continue then one of those needs ot start with the other on the bench.

Back row and Faletau will make yards if he is near the ball, but we have been keeping him out side for much of the competition so he has hardly been involved. Moriarty is of course an option and Navidi makes good hard yards as well. Were not blessed with huge ball carriers, but we have players who can make a dent.

The passing game is a good point given that we have coughed up too many simple errors in possession, or taken the momentum out of our own attack via some shoddy play. Biggar isn't a great passer, neither is JD2. I think Tompkins offers a lot to us, but needs to work on his defence. Jonny Williams potentially offers a big carrying capability for us and Watkin is good at getting over the gain line. Then theres Keiron Williams who can certainly make a dent, but needs an opportunity at international level. We could also work out how to make best use of George North.

I don't think we will ever be a huge pack side, but we can have a capable pack which can make hard yards and be mobile enough to play another kind of game plan. I get the feeling at the moment that players are confused and I also think a few players are reaching the end of their careers and there will need to be a transition. How much longer AWJ can last is debatable, although he was one of our better players vs France and Scotland.

What is certain is that Privac won't get a lot more time ot make a positive mark, so he either needs to adapt the game plan and get all 8 of the pack supporting at the breakdown or try to show that he is blooding new players.

[Puja]

What options do you have for adding carriers into the pack and into midfield? And then one other what options do you have to replace Tipuric?

And I ask the latter because from the outside if you're going to struggle with the power game in the pack there are things that can be done such as playing Faletau at 7 with a Moriarty or whoever coming in at 8. Clearly Tips makes any XV on the basis of picking best players, but given where Wales are with selection and tactics does he make a XV if picking the best team?

If additional power isn't going to be sought then the passing at 9, 10, 12 and 13 comes under review for me, and it that means something like a 2nd 5/8th coming in what does that do to the options in defence?

Was that a luxury giraffe argument employed against Wales?!

Puja

[Sandydragon]

What options do you have for adding carriers into the pack and into midfield? And then one other what options do you have to replace Tipuric?

And I ask the latter because from the outside if you're going to struggle with the power game in the pack there are things that can be done such as playing Faletau at 7 with a Moriarty or whoever coming in at 8. Clearly Tips makes any XV on the basis of picking best players, but given where Wales are with selection and tactics does he make a XV if picking the best team?

If additional power isn't going to be sought then the passing at 9, 10, 12 and 13 comes under review for me, and it that means something like a 2nd 5/8th coming in what does that do to the options in defence?

Was that a luxury giraffe argument employed against Wales?!

Puja

The Luxury Giraffe was a in a league of his own. Tipuric can be seen as a luxury when the pack is under the cosh, but his workrate is normally exceptional in all areas of the game. You could make an argument that against the most physical sides, we would do better with Navidi at open side.

Tipuric doesnt spend all game waiting on the wing fora try scoring pass, so not really comparable.

[Puja]

What options do you have for adding carriers into the pack and into midfield? And then one other what options do you have to replace Tipuric?

And I ask the latter because from the outside if you're going to struggle with the power game in the pack there are things that can be done such as playing Faletau at 7 with a Moriarty or whoever coming in at 8. Clearly Tips makes any XV on the basis of picking best players, but given where Wales are with selection and tactics does he make a XV if picking the best team?

If additional power isn't going to be sought then the passing at 9, 10, 12 and 13 comes under review for me, and it that means something like a 2nd 5/8th coming in what does that do to the options in defence?

Was that a luxury giraffe argument employed against Wales?!

Puja

The Luxury Giraffe was a in a league of his own. Tipuric can be seen as a luxury when the pack is under the cosh, but his workrate is normally exceptional in all areas of the game. You could make an argument that against the most physical sides, we would do better with Navidi at open side.

Tipuric doesnt spend all game waiting on the wing fora try scoring pass, so not really comparable.

Wow. It even gets exactly the same response as when the Welsh called Croft a luxury giraffe. Weird!

Puja

[Digby]

What options do you have for adding carriers into the pack and into midfield? And then one other what options do you have to replace Tipuric?

And I ask the latter because from the outside if you're going to struggle with the power game in the pack there are things that can be done such as playing Faletau at 7 with a Moriarty or whoever coming in at 8. Clearly Tips makes any XV on the basis of picking best players, but given where Wales are with selection and tactics does he make a XV if picking the best team?

If additional power isn't going to be sought then the passing at 9, 10, 12 and 13 comes under review for me, and it that means something like a 2nd 5/8th coming in what does that do to the options in defence?

Was that a luxury giraffe argument employed against Wales?!

Puja

It wasn't intended as such, mainly because I'm a big fan of both players so it wouldn't occur to me to go down that route. More with Wales as is it feels like England under Burt, not only isn't it working but additionally I don't know what they're trying to do (which is different to England now where I simply don't like what they're trying to do), and then if they're going to seek some simple solutions whilst retaining a clunky midfield do they have a best team Vs best player(s) trade off to consider? I'm not stretching that to point of querying should Tips play 12 because he'd need way more experience whilst showing well in the role for a top side like Wales to consider him there.

[Sandydragon]

What options do you have for adding carriers into the pack and into midfield? And then one other what options do you have to replace Tipuric?

And I ask the latter because from the outside if you're going to struggle with the power game in the pack there are things that can be done such as playing Faletau at 7 with a Moriarty or whoever coming in at 8. Clearly Tips makes any XV on the basis of picking best players, but given where Wales are with selection and tactics does he make a XV if picking the best team?

If additional power isn't going to be sought then the passing at 9, 10, 12 and 13 comes under review for me, and it that means something like a 2nd 5/8th coming in what does that do to the options in defence?

Was that a luxury giraffe argument employed against Wales?!

Puja

It wasn't intended as such, mainly because I'm a big fan of both players so it wouldn't occur to me to go down that route. More with Wales as is it feels like England under Burt, not only isn't it working but additionally I don't know what they're trying to do (which is different to England now where I simply don't like what they're trying to do), and then if they're going to seek some simple solutions whilst retaining a clunky midfield do they have a best team Vs best player(s) trade off to consider? I'm not stretching that to point of querying should Tips play 12 because he'd need way more experience whilst showing well in the role for a top side like Wales to consider him there.

Also Wales have played a particular gameplay for 12 years. It is going to take time to adapt to something else and you can see some frustration as players fall back on what they know.

It also doesnt help that our regions are struggling and some of the basic skills on display are pathetic. At international level, coaches should be able to refine the game plan; they shouldn't be coaching basic skills. But we seem to have lost some of those since our 2005 era where we did have the skill to play a wider game with confidence.

[Digby]

Was that a luxury giraffe argument employed against Wales?!

Puja

It wasn't intended as such, mainly because I'm a big fan of both players so it wouldn't occur to me to go down that route. More with Wales as is it feels like England under Burt, not only isn't it working but additionally I don't know what they're trying to do (which is different to England now where I simply don't like what they're trying to do), and then if they're going to seek some simple solutions whilst retaining a clunky midfield do they have a best team Vs best player(s) trade off to consider? I'm not stretching that to point of querying should Tips play 12 because he'd need way more experience whilst showing well in the role for a top side like Wales to consider him there.

Also Wales have played a particular gameplay for 12 years. It is going to take time to adapt to something else and you can see some frustration as players fall back on what they know.

It also doesnt help that our regions are struggling and some of the basic skills on display are pathetic. At international level, coaches should be able to refine the game plan; they shouldn't be coaching basic skills. But we seem to have lost some of those since our 2005 era where we did have the skill to play a wider game with confidence.

I sort of think all rugby coaching is coaching basic rugby skills, and good coaching is somehow dressing it up as something else so the players don't get bored. There's a huge amount of detail granted, but I think you can quickly get into trouble at any level if you're not attending to the basics. Though there are some skill problems in NH rugby, and that's not just a Welsh regions thing. I'd love to see the advance of Handball as a schools or at least youth sport, it strikes me as cheap, easy to organise, great for fitness, and as far as rugby is concerned brilliant for handling skills and decision making, but as with much else I've never gotten anywhere with that. Korfball has made some progress however, so maybe that and some touch rugby can gain further traction, and the shift in coaching mindsets that allowing teams to pass isn't a great sin.

[Wallpaperman]

Was that a luxury giraffe argument employed against Wales?!

Puja

The Luxury Giraffe was a in a league of his own. Tipuric can be seen as a luxury when the pack is under the cosh, but his workrate is normally exceptional in all areas of the game. You could make an argument that against the most physical sides, we would do better with Navidi at open side.

Tipuric doesnt spend all game waiting on the wing fora try scoring pass, so not really comparable.

Wow. It even gets exactly the same response as when the Welsh called Croft a luxury giraffe. Weird!

Puja

When I saw the term ‘luxury giraffe’ I thought you meant Luke Charteris, who after some early criticism ended up being an excellent player for Wales, and was unlucky to not tour with the Lions in 2013. I am hoping that Adam Beard will be Wales’ new Charteris in a year or two.

I thought that Croft was the show pony. Or was that Jamie Heaslip ? (Both excellent players, it goes without saying).

[Wallpaperman]

It wasn't intended as such, mainly because I'm a big fan of both players so it wouldn't occur to me to go down that route. More with Wales as is it feels like England under Burt, not only isn't it working but additionally I don't know what they're trying to do (which is different to England now where I simply don't like what they're trying to do), and then if they're going to seek some simple solutions whilst retaining a clunky midfield do they have a best team Vs best player(s) trade off to consider? I'm not stretching that to point of querying should Tips play 12 because he'd need way more experience whilst showing well in the role for a top side like Wales to consider him there.

Also Wales have played a particular gameplay for 12 years. It is going to take time to adapt to something else and you can see some frustration as players fall back on what they know.

It also doesnt help that our regions are struggling and some of the basic skills on display are pathetic. At international level, coaches should be able to refine the game plan; they shouldn't be coaching basic skills. But we seem to have lost some of those since our 2005 era where we did have the skill to play a wider game with confidence.

I sort of think all rugby coaching is coaching basic rugby skills, and good coaching is somehow dressing it up as something else so the players don't get bored. There's a huge amount of detail granted, but I think you can quickly get into trouble at any level if you're not attending to the basics. Though there are some skill problems in NH rugby, and that's not just a Welsh regions thing. I'd love to see the advance of Handball as a schools or at least youth sport, it strikes me as cheap, easy to organise, great for fitness, and as far as rugby is concerned brilliant for handling skills and decision making, but as with much else I've never gotten anywhere with that. Korfball has made some progress however, so maybe that and some touch rugby can gain further traction, and the shift in coaching mindsets that allowing teams to pass isn't a great sin.

Some of the current play at the Welsh regions is dire, but I am optimistic that the proven coaches at the Dragons and the Ospreys will be able to develop the younger players. (Then again I thought Scott Johnson would turn the Ospreys back line into world beaters back in the day).

[Wallpaperman]

Agree with the earlier sentiments about the current problems stemming from the front 5 rather than the defence per se. There have been problems at both scrum and lineout, and it’s very difficult to do anything without first phase ball. There has also been no heavy ball carrying of note, compared to other teams, meaning that ball gets kicked away after a few phases of going nowhere. It’s not the most exciting selection but I would pick Wyn Jones, Parry, Francis, AWJ and Rowlands as the front 5 this week. More of the same on the bench, with Smith, Elias, Lee (if fit). Not sure about the second row on the bench, probably Ball, depending on who is fit in the back row. Would be very happy if Moriarty and Navidi are fit again.

Also agree that the Welsh defence was pretty porous at times during the World Cup warmups and at the World Cup itself. France should have taken Wales to the cleaners in the quarter final.

[Sandydragon]

The Luxury Giraffe was a in a league of his own. Tipuric can be seen as a luxury when the pack is under the cosh, but his workrate is normally exceptional in all areas of the game. You could make an argument that against the most physical sides, we would do better with Navidi at open side.

Tipuric doesnt spend all game waiting on the wing fora try scoring pass, so not really comparable.

Wow. It even gets exactly the same response as when the Welsh called Croft a luxury giraffe. Weird!

Puja

When I saw the term ‘luxury giraffe’ I thought you meant Luke Charteris, who after some early criticism ended up being an excellent player for Wales, and was unlucky to not tour with the Lions in 2013. I am hoping that Adam Beard will be Wales’ new Charteris in a year or two.

I thought that Croft was the show pony. Or was that Jamie Heaslip ? (Both excellent players, it goes without saying).

Croft was the luxury giraffe. I think it was prior to a Lions tours a few years ago when Croft was being bigged up for scoring a try every other game and being compared to Lydiate who actually worked for a living.

[Puja]

Wow. It even gets exactly the same response as when the Welsh called Croft a luxury giraffe. Weird!

Puja

When I saw the term ‘luxury giraffe’ I thought you meant Luke Charteris, who after some early criticism ended up being an excellent player for Wales, and was unlucky to not tour with the Lions in 2013. I am hoping that Adam Beard will be Wales’ new Charteris in a year or two.

I thought that Croft was the show pony. Or was that Jamie Heaslip ? (Both excellent players, it goes without saying).

Croft was the luxury giraffe. I think it was prior to a Lions tours a few years ago when Croft was being bigged up for scoring a try every other game and being compared to Lydiate who actually worked for a living.

Exactly right - the Welsh fans called him a luxury giraffe in the Lions discussions because they were so dazzled by the idea of a 6 who could do more than just grind and tackle that they couldn't see that he was being entirely misused by the England management (who were also dazzled by this bizarre idea of a forward who was skillful) and that he was also superb at the tight work too. Which he actually proved on that Lions tour when under a manager that used him properly.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

When I saw the term ‘luxury giraffe’ I thought you meant Luke Charteris, who after some early criticism ended up being an excellent player for Wales, and was unlucky to not tour with the Lions in 2013. I am hoping that Adam Beard will be Wales’ new Charteris in a year or two.

I thought that Croft was the show pony. Or was that Jamie Heaslip ? (Both excellent players, it goes without saying).

Croft was the luxury giraffe. I think it was prior to a Lions tours a few years ago when Croft was being bigged up for scoring a try every other game and being compared to Lydiate who actually worked for a living.

Exactly right - the Welsh fans called him a luxury giraffe in the Lions discussions because they were so dazzled by the idea of a 6 who could do more than just grind and tackle that they couldn't see that he was being entirely misused by the England management (who were also dazzled by this bizarre idea of a forward who was skillful) and that he was also superb at the tight work too. Which he actually proved on that Lions tour when under a manager that used him properly.

Puja

The same manager who then decided to drop him in favour of Dan Lydiate.

[Puja]

Croft was the luxury giraffe. I think it was prior to a Lions tours a few years ago when Croft was being bigged up for scoring a try every other game and being compared to Lydiate who actually worked for a living.

Exactly right - the Welsh fans called him a luxury giraffe in the Lions discussions because they were so dazzled by the idea of a 6 who could do more than just grind and tackle that they couldn't see that he was being entirely misused by the England management (who were also dazzled by this bizarre idea of a forward who was skillful) and that he was also superb at the tight work too. Which he actually proved on that Lions tour when under a manager that used him properly.

Puja

The same manager who then decided to drop him in favour of Dan Lydiate.

Just googled it and he was dropped to the bench for the third test for Joe Worsley, not Lydiate. I think, whatever our differences, that we can all agree that Joe Worsley is not the right selection in 90% of cases.

Regardless, he was excellent in playing a tighter game for the 2.5 tests that he played, absolutely belying the pre-tour criticism from people who'd only seen him play for England of, "Oh he can only stand on the wing and score tries!"

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Exactly right - the Welsh fans called him a luxury giraffe in the Lions discussions because they were so dazzled by the idea of a 6 who could do more than just grind and tackle that they couldn't see that he was being entirely misused by the England management (who were also dazzled by this bizarre idea of a forward who was skillful) and that he was also superb at the tight work too. Which he actually proved on that Lions tour when under a manager that used him properly.

Puja

The same manager who then decided to drop him in favour of Dan Lydiate.

Just googled it and he was dropped to the bench for the third test for Joe Worsley, not Lydiate. I think, whatever our differences, that we can all agree that Joe Worsley is not the right selection in 90% of cases.

Regardless, he was excellent in playing a tighter game for the 2.5 tests that he played, absolutely belying the pre-tour criticism from people who'd only seen him play for England of, "Oh he can only stand on the wing and score tries!"

Puja

Croft was benched for the second test, with Lydiate starting. He came on when Warburton was injured. In the final test, it was O Brian with started.

Its just occurred to me that I'm referring to the Australian tour and I think you are referring to the South African one?

Joe Worsley is rarely the right answer.

[Puja]

The same manager who then decided to drop him in favour of Dan Lydiate.

Just googled it and he was dropped to the bench for the third test for Joe Worsley, not Lydiate. I think, whatever our differences, that we can all agree that Joe Worsley is not the right selection in 90% of cases.

Regardless, he was excellent in playing a tighter game for the 2.5 tests that he played, absolutely belying the pre-tour criticism from people who'd only seen him play for England of, "Oh he can only stand on the wing and score tries!"

Puja

Croft was benched for the second test, with Lydiate starting. He came on when Warburton was injured. In the final test, it was O Brian with started.

Its just occurred to me that I'm referring to the Australian tour and I think you are referring to the South African one?

Joe Worsley is rarely the right answer.

Ah, that makes sense! Yes, I am indeed referring to the South Africa tour where Croft was magnificent.

I will be honest, I don't remember the 2013 tour very well (memory issues), but it would've been after the flurry of knee and neck injuries from 2010-12 that were the start of the end of Croft's career and I doubt he would've been the same player as he was in his prime.

I think the only time Worsley was ever the right answer was that one game against Wales where Roberts was your only attacking weapon and we basically sent Worsley out there to do absolutely nothing but chop him down. Aside from that, dreadfully limited player (although apparently very promising coach).

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Just googled it and he was dropped to the bench for the third test for Joe Worsley, not Lydiate. I think, whatever our differences, that we can all agree that Joe Worsley is not the right selection in 90% of cases.

Regardless, he was excellent in playing a tighter game for the 2.5 tests that he played, absolutely belying the pre-tour criticism from people who'd only seen him play for England of, "Oh he can only stand on the wing and score tries!"

Puja

Croft was benched for the second test, with Lydiate starting. He came on when Warburton was injured. In the final test, it was O Brian with started.

Its just occurred to me that I'm referring to the Australian tour and I think you are referring to the South African one?

Joe Worsley is rarely the right answer.

Ah, that makes sense! Yes, I am indeed referring to the South Africa tour where Croft was magnificent.

I will be honest, I don't remember the 2013 tour very well (memory issues), but it would've been after the flurry of knee and neck injuries from 2010-12 that were the start of the end of Croft's career and I doubt he would've been the same player as he was in his prime.

I think the only time Worsley was ever the right answer was that one game against Wales where Roberts was your only attacking weapon and we basically sent Worsley out there to do absolutely nothing but chop him down. Aside from that, dreadfully limited player (although apparently very promising coach).

Puja

Yes, I remember that game where Roberts was a marked man, 2009 Six Nations. We still won but it was a closer game than was expected at the time.

[Wallpaperman]

Croft was benched for the second test, with Lydiate starting. He came on when Warburton was injured. In the final test, it was O Brian with started.

Its just occurred to me that I'm referring to the Australian tour and I think you are referring to the South African one?

Joe Worsley is rarely the right answer.

Ah, that makes sense! Yes, I am indeed referring to the South Africa tour where Croft was magnificent.

I will be honest, I don't remember the 2013 tour very well (memory issues), but it would've been after the flurry of knee and neck injuries from 2010-12 that were the start of the end of Croft's career and I doubt he would've been the same player as he was in his prime.

I think the only time Worsley was ever the right answer was that one game against Wales where Roberts was your only attacking weapon and we basically sent Worsley out there to do absolutely nothing but chop him down. Aside from that, dreadfully limited player (although apparently very promising coach).

Puja

Yes, I remember that game where Roberts was a marked man, 2009 Six Nations. We still won but it was a closer game than was expected at the time.

I remember that one. Delon Armitage scored a really good try and almost got a second. Was surprised that he didn’t make the Lions squad.

I agree Puja re the England team at the time - after Brian Ashton they went into their shells a little bit and went for a very physical, but one-dimensional game plan. I think they started back on the right track post the 2011 World Cup. They still must have won around 75% of the games they played between 2008-12 though.

PS - watch out for autocorrect when entering Armitage’s name ! I nearly posted a message calling him ‘Demon Armitage’.

[Sandydragon]

That Armitage non selection thing was political wasn't it? Bit like not picking Webb whilst he played outside of Wales.