Bath v Harlequins

[Which Tyler]

Ref: Luke Pearce
TJs: Andrew Jackson & Paul Dix
TMO: Stuart Terheege

Bath:
1 Beno Obano
2 Niall Annett
3 Thomas du Toit
4 Elliott Stooke
5 Charlie Ewels
6 GJ van Velze
7 Miles Reid
8 Alfie Barbeary

09 Ben Spencer (c)
10 Finn Russell
11 Will Muir
12 Max Ojomoh
13 Ollie Lawrence
14 Joe Cokanasiga
15 Matt Gallagher

16 Tom Dunn, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Jaco Coetzee
21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Cameron Redpath

Harlequins:
1 Joe Marler
2 Jack Walker
3 Will Collier
4 Joe Launchbury
5 Stephan Lewies
6 Chandler Cunningham-South
7 James Chisholm
8 Alex Dombrandt (c)

09 Danny Care
10 Marcus Smith
11 Louis Lynagh
12 Andre Esterhuizen
13 Will Joseph
14 Nic David
15 Tyrone Green

16 Sam Riley, 17 Fin Baxter, 18 Dillon Lewis, 19 Irne Herbst, 20 George Hammond, 21 Will Evans
22 Will Porter, 23 Oscar Beard



I know I've said it before, but it's worth repeating - I'm loving that JvG is actually rotating our squad, not just talking about it, but only making injury enforced changes.
This week, Dunn, Stuart and Redpath sit on the bench, whilst Underhill gets a 2nd week off.
You could say that McNally and Cloete have been given a week off, but I'd rather think they've been dropped for being frankly bad this season.

[Which Tyler]

Good start
Not sure the final pass was backwards

Reverse angle look fine

[Which Tyler]

Boight the dummy

[Which Tyler]

How the F???


ETA, nice to see the card shown despite the try being scored.


Change on - no advantage?
If that's the law, then the law is an arse!

[Which Tyler]

On the written-off try, I've seen a suggestion that I like - give the captain the choice, try stands, or card & penalty?

[Which Tyler]

Today, Coka IS looking sharp

[fivepointer]

Coka looked in great nick. I like Muir on the other wing too.

Bath played some good stuff today. Nice balance to their play with several players really playing well.

Smith missed a conversion to get a losing BP. Pity, he busted a gut all afternoon and Quins deserved something out of the game.

[Banquo]

Today, Coka IS looking sharp

Told ya just ahead of the curve

[Puja]

How the F???


ETA, nice to see the card shown despite the try being scored.


Change on - no advantage?
If that's the law, then the law is an arse!

The problem is that Spencer then plays the ball on the ground to regather it and lay it back on his side, so there can be no advantage. I would argue that's a stonewall penalty try though - what greater evidence could there be that a try would probably have been scored if the offence didn't take place, than the try literally being scored and then chalked off because of a fumble caused by the offence?

There was one in the Sale game that was similar - Ford made a break and was hauled down, quick ball was produced and the Sarries winger chosen to press up to make the tackle rather than get all the way back onside. 100% yellow card and I'd've given a penalty try, but the ref didn't even put his hand in his pocket. Players are going to be cynical and kill probable tries if refs don't have the minerals to go under the posts.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

The problem is that Spencer then plays the ball on the ground to regather it and lay it back on his side, so there can be no advantage.

Fair point, well made.

[Which Tyler]

This is what a Nat20 looks like (if you know, you know)

[Spiffy]

Coka looked in great nick. I like Muir on the other wing too.

Bath played some good stuff today. Nice balance to their play with several players really playing well.

Smith missed a conversion to get a losing BP. Pity, he busted a gut all afternoon and Quins deserved something out of the game.

Smith is almost a brilliant FH. He just needs to lose that pop-eyed frantic element about his play and choose his moments. Take a leaf out of the laid-back Russell playbook.
He could also give up the silly hitch kick/goose step/vertical side step/bunny hop that just slows you up, looks daft and achieves nothing.

[francoisfou]

Coka looked in great nick. I like Muir on the other wing too.

Bath played some good stuff today. Nice balance to their play with several players really playing well.

Smith missed a conversion to get a losing BP. Pity, he busted a gut all afternoon and Quins deserved something out of the game.

Smith is almost a brilliant FH. He just needs to lose that pop-eyed frantic element about his play and choose his moments. Take a leaf out of the laid-back Russell playbook.
He could also give up the silly hitch kick/goose step/vertical side step/bunny hop that just slows you up, looks daft and achieves nothing.

He also needs to make an appointment with a different hairdresser (Joe Marler's, perhaps?)

[Mikey Brown]

Coka looked in great nick. I like Muir on the other wing too.

Bath played some good stuff today. Nice balance to their play with several players really playing well.

Smith missed a conversion to get a losing BP. Pity, he busted a gut all afternoon and Quins deserved something out of the game.

Smith is almost a brilliant FH. He just needs to lose that pop-eyed frantic element about his play and choose his moments. Take a leaf out of the laid-back Russell playbook.
He could also give up the silly hitch kick/goose step/vertical side step/bunny hop that just slows you up, looks daft and achieves nothing.

Aside from creating absolutely countless line-breaks and scoring opportunities you mean? Yes it looks kind of dumb, but I feel like people often don’t look at what it actually does to defenders more often than not.

Agreed on the first part though, he needs to learn when to go for it himself (including the hitch kick) and when to just trust those outside him or build phases.

[Oakboy]

Coka looked in great nick. I like Muir on the other wing too.

Bath played some good stuff today. Nice balance to their play with several players really playing well.

Smith missed a conversion to get a losing BP. Pity, he busted a gut all afternoon and Quins deserved something out of the game.

Smith is almost a brilliant FH. He just needs to lose that pop-eyed frantic element about his play and choose his moments. Take a leaf out of the laid-back Russell playbook.
He could also give up the silly hitch kick/goose step/vertical side step/bunny hop that just slows you up, looks daft and achieves nothing.

Aside from creating absolutely countless line-breaks and scoring opportunities you mean? Yes it looks kind of dumb, but I feel like people often don’t look at what it actually does to defenders more often than not.

Agreed on the first part though, he needs to learn when to go for it himself (including the hitch kick) and when to just trust those outside him or build phases.

I think Smith is in a Catch 22 situation. Farrell and Ford are the 'sensible', orthodox choices: usually doing the conservative with very occasional touches of positivity. We have won nothing apart from one GS with them but we have scraped 6N wins (i.e. we have lost at least one match) and been 2nd or 3rd at the RWC. They let nobody down.

What does Smith do - play like them?

He has the talent to be better and, most important of all, the team's ceiling can be higher if he finds his feet without Farrell and Ford hovering. I don't want any of his horizons lowered. Pick the right team around him, establish solid set-piece and defence, expand the playing style sensibly and let Smith have his head.

[Spiffy]

Coka looked in great nick. I like Muir on the other wing too.

Bath played some good stuff today. Nice balance to their play with several players really playing well.

Smith missed a conversion to get a losing BP. Pity, he busted a gut all afternoon and Quins deserved something out of the game.

Smith is almost a brilliant FH. He just needs to lose that pop-eyed frantic element about his play and choose his moments. Take a leaf out of the laid-back Russell playbook.
He could also give up the silly hitch kick/goose step/vertical side step/bunny hop that just slows you up, looks daft and achieves nothing.

Aside from creating absolutely countless line-breaks and scoring opportunities you mean? Yes it looks kind of dumb, but I feel like people often don’t look at what it actually does to defenders more often than not.

Agreed on the first part though, he needs to learn when to go for it himself (including the hitch kick) and when to just trust those outside him or build phases.

I've noticed a few of Smith's team mates copying the bunny hop recently. But they often perform it just running the ball back in open play with no defender remotely close to bamboozle. They just feel it's time to show they can do it and up they go. Always makes me think of a mad March hare.

[FKAS]

Smith is almost a brilliant FH. He just needs to lose that pop-eyed frantic element about his play and choose his moments. Take a leaf out of the laid-back Russell playbook.
He could also give up the silly hitch kick/goose step/vertical side step/bunny hop that just slows you up, looks daft and achieves nothing.

Aside from creating absolutely countless line-breaks and scoring opportunities you mean? Yes it looks kind of dumb, but I feel like people often don’t look at what it actually does to defenders more often than not.

Agreed on the first part though, he needs to learn when to go for it himself (including the hitch kick) and when to just trust those outside him or build phases.

I think Smith is in a Catch 22 situation. Farrell and Ford are the 'sensible', orthodox choices: usually doing the conservative with very occasional touches of positivity. We have won nothing apart from one GS with them but we have scraped 6N wins (i.e. we have lost at least one match) and been 2nd or 3rd at the RWC. They let nobody down.

What does Smith do - play like them?

He has the talent to be better and, most important of all, the team's ceiling can be higher if he finds his feet without Farrell and Ford hovering. I don't want any of his horizons lowered. Pick the right team around him, establish solid set-piece and defence, expand the playing style sensibly and let Smith have his head.

Set piece and defence was pretty much there at the world cup. Smith wasn't. He looked better at 15. Smith's had the "right team" around him several times and just hasn't delivered. I'd like to see England persevere with him as I agree he could be something very special but he has to learn how to play more than just in the Quins way. As much as we bemoan Farrell's inability to play at a higher tempo at international level (at club level he gets away with it), Smith is like the reverse. We know he can play the wonderful attacking stuff but he's got to brush up the controlling elements of his game, particularly with it being likely that Mitchell will be at 9 and it's not always his strong point either.

The problem for Marcus is that Fin Smith looks to be working on rounding out the elements of his game. He's not quite as flashy as Marcus but Fin has been showing a bit of everything at Saints this season, there's not much in the way of weakness left. If Marcus doesn't push on and claim that shirt soon I think Fin Smith takes it and Marcus ends up wearing 22 and covering 10/15.

[Banquo]

Aside from creating absolutely countless line-breaks and scoring opportunities you mean? Yes it looks kind of dumb, but I feel like people often don’t look at what it actually does to defenders more often than not.

Agreed on the first part though, he needs to learn when to go for it himself (including the hitch kick) and when to just trust those outside him or build phases.

I think Smith is in a Catch 22 situation. Farrell and Ford are the 'sensible', orthodox choices: usually doing the conservative with very occasional touches of positivity. We have won nothing apart from one GS with them but we have scraped 6N wins (i.e. we have lost at least one match) and been 2nd or 3rd at the RWC. They let nobody down.

What does Smith do - play like them?

He has the talent to be better and, most important of all, the team's ceiling can be higher if he finds his feet without Farrell and Ford hovering. I don't want any of his horizons lowered. Pick the right team around him, establish solid set-piece and defence, expand the playing style sensibly and let Smith have his head.

Set piece and defence was pretty much there at the world cup. Smith wasn't. He looked better at 15. Smith's had the "right team" around him several times and just hasn't delivered. I'd like to see England persevere with him as I agree he could be something very special but he has to learn how to play more than just in the Quins way. As much as we bemoan Farrell's inability to play at a higher tempo at international level (at club level he gets away with it), Smith is like the reverse. We know he can play the wonderful attacking stuff but he's got to brush up the controlling elements of his game, particularly with it being likely that Mitchell will be at 9 and it's not always his strong point either.

The problem for Marcus is that Fin Smith looks to be working on rounding out the elements of his game. He's not quite as flashy as Marcus but Fin has been showing a bit of everything at Saints this season, there's not much in the way of weakness left. If Marcus doesn't push on and claim that shirt soon I think Fin Smith takes it and Marcus ends up wearing 22 and covering 10/15.

I was going to say that any ten needs set piece and defence sorted, but also importantly, quicker ball than England have delivered in eons, including the world cup. When did Smith M start at 10 in the World Cup, by the by, my memory is somewhat hazy!

[FKAS]

Following the lackluster displays in the build up to the tournament he played off the bench as I'm sure you remember. Normally coming off the bench against a tiring defence suits a more attacking flyhalf.

Part of the flyhalfs job is helping create the momentum for quick ball. Not many flyhalfs have the luxury of an armchair ride at international rugby.

[Banquo]

Following the lackluster displays in the build up to the tournament he played off the bench as I'm sure you remember. Normally coming off the bench against a tiring defence suits a more attacking flyhalf.

Part of the flyhalfs job is helping create the momentum for quick ball. Not many flyhalfs have the luxury of an armchair ride at international rugby.

So he didn't start at 10? How many times did he come on at 10? Sure part of his role is to get a forward or back over the tackle line- how quick the ball is then depends on skill of clearers; its quite hard for a 10 to create quick ball from slow ball though- and its been England's big failing whoever has been at 10. There's a gap between England ball and armchair ride that its reasonable to expect a good team to fill . BTW I'm not especially a fan of Smith at intl level, but not convinced he has been 'surrounded by the right players' either.

...edit- have looked it up, he came on at 10 twice, once for 5 mins and once for half an hour v Samoa. Mind if we are reviewing the RWC, how good was Ford v Argentina?

[FKAS]

Ford was exceptional Vs Argentina. His form this season is pretty mediocre though so I'd hope we'd be looking at the Smiths to step up.

It just feels a cop out with the old "he's not had the right players" argument for Smith. He's lined up with Dombrant, Care and Marchant before now and still struggled to deliver. His form has been up and down in the Prem though has been more up lately which is good timing. I'm just not convinced we should be automatically backing him when Fin Smith looks so well rounded at such a young age and some of his attacking play is pretty exceptional.

[Mikey Brown]

I agree to an extent, but I think analysis of the play style should go well beyond ‘playing like Quins’ or ‘playing like (mostly turgid) England’. I’d fear for Fin Smith doing considerably better without any plan in place to make use of our strengths.

Issue as ever is we don’t actually know where our strengths are anymore. There is no core to build around. You just end up with Smith or Arundel desperately trying to conjur something out of nowhere.

[Puja]

There's so much of it that has to be IBWT (or not, as the case may be), until our first game against Italy. Does either Smith match the gameplan of 2024!England? Are we iterating from the dour, anti-rugby that we played (moderately effectively) in the RWC, or are we starting afresh with an actual attack coach and the version of Borthwick that invented plans specifically to deal with the Boks for Japan and to rebuild Leicester.

Even the squad selection won't tell us a huge amount - ditching Ford and Manu might make some people happier and increase the chances of a new beginning, but we could have both of those in the starting lineup and still be pitching a whole new style.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Who we pick at 10 is pretty much moot if we play as we did in the autumn.

[Banquo]

Ford was exceptional Vs Argentina. His form this season is pretty mediocre though so I'd hope we'd be looking at the Smiths to step up.

It just feels a cop out with the old "he's not had the right players" argument for Smith. He's lined up with Dombrant, Care and Marchant before now and still struggled to deliver. His form has been up and down in the Prem though has been more up lately which is good timing. I'm just not convinced we should be automatically backing him when Fin Smith looks so well rounded at such a young age and some of his attacking play is pretty exceptional.

On the other hand, it also seem odd to say the defence and set piece was sorted but he didn't perform at 10 in the World Cup, when he barely played at 10 in the world cup. And he also got MOTM twice in the 6N when neither were sorted - so did deliver then, at least partially, in a sh+t team. Which is the major point with him and some other players- expecting 'delivery' in a sh8t team (and especially for his USP's) is a bit odd. Quoting lining up with Dombrandt- everyone seems to agree that he himself hasn't delivered and he wasnt at the World cup, Care- bit past it at intl level....seems strange.
He's mainly looked as mediocre as anyone else in a poor team of late (bar the two MOTM efforts in the 6N); when the team sort of half clicked in the World Cup, he had little time at 10. Perhaps surrounded by the right players is a bad way of putting it, as it seems to translate into 'the quins players he normally plays with', which isn't what I mean- playing in a half decent intl side might be a good start, and indeed one which has any aspirations in attack through the backs (and the forwards to enable it).