England vs New Zealand - Saturday

[Puja]

15. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
14. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, 6 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 65 caps)
12. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
11. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 35 caps)
9. Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)

1. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 62 caps) – vice-captain
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 93 caps) – captain
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 41 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 84 caps) – vice-captain
5. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps)
6. Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, 7 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 53 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 33 caps) – vice-captain

Replacements:
16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 14 caps)
17. Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 2 caps)
18. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 115 caps)
19. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)
20. Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps)
21. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 17 caps)
22. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 7 caps)
23. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 96 caps) – vice captain

[Mellsblue]

Dombo?!?!?!

[Puja]

Immediate thoughts - 6:2 bench split . Gods help us if we have injuries cause it's hardly the most flexible set of bench replacements ever - I'm guessing any centre injury would be covered by Smith to 15, Furbank to wing, and Freeman to centre which is... less than ideal, to put it mildly? This is doubly important considering Slade's newly back from injury and un-battle-hardened. If he gets injured or plays like a drain, we've got to disarrange our entire backline to bring him off (or put Earl there, which I'm increasingly worried might be plan A). If we're going to do 6:2, then I think I'd prefer to have Sleightholme at 23 and trust Furbank to cover 10 if Smith goes down.

Hope the Spencer-starting-having-better-confidence theories hold true, cause it'll be a long day if he plays like he did against Scotland and NZ. Good to see Randall on the bench - he'll offer something to change up the pace if we need it.

Very interesting to see that both Currys have apparently leapfrogged Underhill. I'm fully expecting 19-21 to be used to replace the entire back row and have Itoje/Martin play the 80. Possibly useful strategy against a very breakdown-focussed ABs? It's either genius or madness - either way, it's a plan I'd prefer if it was Chessum or Coles at 19, although we could do worse than Isiekwe.

Lastly, 4 vice-captains. Risible.

Aside from that, it's a good team and has the potential to be a very fun game. Weather forecast is dry, so hopefully we'll continue using the ball and attacking.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

That has some seriously odd selections!! Fuck 6:2! The bench forwards are a mess, front row aside.

Let’s hope we’re not chasing the game! And Ford??? WTAF!

[Mikey Brown]

Starting team is pretty good but that bench feels all wrong. Just asking for a couple of awkward injuries, as you say.

Make or break for Spencer, he's at least got a settled pack in front of him. I'm hoping Smith can replicate something of the assurance Russell has provided Spencer at Bath, but he's been all over the place for Quins so far this season.

Are the ABs still going 6:2 frequently?

[fivepointer]

Very disappointing that there are only 4 vice captains.

Starting XV is fair enough. As soon as Slade played at the weekend he was going to be in. Spencer at SH could work if he brings his Bath form.

The bench.....ah. I dont rate Isiekwe at all, Dombrandt has hardly played and Ford hasnt played for a few weeks. 6:2 split leaves us very vulnerable if we lose an outside back.

[Danno]

B.Curry is a surprise, it was starting to feel like his ship had sailed and in 1-2 years he has Pearson, Pepper and Pollock to contend with as well. Hope he gets a good run out and a good game.

[Mikey Brown]

Lozowski legitmately being able to play 10-15 and kick goals would have made an awful lot of sense on the bench (if we were set on 6:2) as well. Apparently Ben Curry and Dombrandt are now offering something we simply can't do without.

[Danno]

Lozowski legitmately being able to play 10-15 and kick goals would have made an awful lot of sense on the bench (if we were set on 6:2) as well. Apparently Ben Curry and Dombrandt are now offering something we simply can't do without.

Very good point, I forgot he was in camp.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Very disappointing that there are only 4 vice captains.

Starting XV is fair enough. As soon as Slade played at the weekend he was going to be in. Spencer at SH could work if he brings his Bath form.

The bench.....ah. I dont rate Isiekwe at all, Dombrandt has hardly played and Ford hasnt played for a few weeks. 6:2 split leaves us very vulnerable if we lose an outside back.

Starting lineup is fair enough, but the bench is all kinds of horrible (front row aside, which looks to be a nod to the NZ finishing front rows scrummaging prowess)

[Puja]

Lozowski legitmately being able to play 10-15 and kick goals would have made an awful lot of sense on the bench (if we were set on 6:2) as well. Apparently Ben Curry and Dombrandt are now offering something we simply can't do without.

Very good point, I forgot he was in camp.

Same. Although I think I'd probably trust Furbank with the keys if Smith were to get injured more than I would Lozowski.

I can understand having Ford. Quite apart from the fact that omitting him would mean that we had the unacceptable situation of only 3 vice-captains, the games in the summer were eminently winnable, but we couldn't get them over the line. FSmith is a great talent, but he doesn't have the nous and experience that Ford does, and when he came off the bench in NZ, he barely made a dent (which is very much understandable for a 22 year old who was only in his second full season of adult rugby). Ford is an incredible player just on general capability and possibly ahead of FSmith/level with MSmith anyway, but he's also got the experience and nous to allow him to come off the bench and seize a game by the scruff of the neck (the 38-38 draw against Scotland springing immediately to mind where he rescued the game from Farrell having tried to throw it away).

I'd be much happier if Ford was wearing 22 in a proper 5:3 bench rather than 6:2 though - I feel if you're going to take that gamble you need to have an all-court player as your utility back.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Ironically, probably the best answer for the 23 shirt in a 6:2 split is Farrell. That’s assuming you don’t realise the best answer to a 6:2 split is a 5:3 split.

[Tom Moore]

3 who've barely played in the last few weeks and a likely finishing back row with both Dombrandt and Ben Curry in it. I don't think the last half hour is going to be fun.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I can confirm that I have also been named as a vice captain.

[FKAS]

Well that's a bit shite in terms of selection isn't it. Bench has all the impact of a wet paper bag, ok that's maybe harsh on Dan and Randall. Starting side is fairly decent.

Early prediction is it'll be close after 50 mins and we'll slowly fade towards the end of the game. Subs won't have the impact we need and we'll be left to lament the chances we didn't take in the first half.

Borthwick used to talk about having the best team over the course of 80 mins whereas now it looks like we're hoping the starting options last as long as possible (bar Spencer).

[Banquo]

I can confirm that I have also been named as a vice captain.

lol

odd and quite risky selection. No outside back cover is mad.

[Oakboy]

Looking at the 20/21 selections, will anybody be surprised if Tom Willis joins his brother in France soon? I just can't understand the thinking behind those picks. If there has to be a 6:2 bench, Coles and Underhill offer better cover.

Picking Ford, an injury-prone FH, ahead of Fin seems odd to me as well - as one of only two backs.

[Stom]

Well, reading 1 through 18 and it was like: yes, this is a good team. I can quibble over Spencer, but otherwise it's as good as we're going to get.

The rest, though...

What happens if Freeman goes down? If one of the centres goes down? Furbank is hardly a "pacy wing", so...

Madness.

And I'm not sold on any of Isiekwe, BCurry, or Dommers over other options, even if I like the latter two as players.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Well, reading 1 through 18 and it was like: yes, this is a good team. I can quibble over Spencer, but otherwise it's as good as we're going to get.

The rest, though...

What happens if Freeman goes down? If one of the centres goes down? Furbank is hardly a "pacy wing", so...

Madness.

And I'm not sold on any of Isiekwe, BCurry, or Dommers over other options, even if I like the latter two as players.

This is pretty much me right now.

And the vice captains thing is just another nail in making us laughing stocks. It’s wholly unnecessary and just sets us up for abuse! Why bother! What does putting that on a team sheet give you in terms of positives or fan engagement?

[Mellsblue]

Less IBWT, more IBS.

[Danno]

Ford is an incredible player just on general capability and possibly ahead of FSmith/level with MSmith anyway, but he's also got the experience and nous to allow him to come off the bench and seize a game by the scruff of the neck (the 38-38 draw against Scotland springing immediately to mind where he rescued the game from Farrell having tried to throw it away).

Still in awe of his performance against Argentina in the RWC, and that was virtually all him. He marshalled everyone to play that way.

[Mellsblue]

Ford is an incredible player just on general capability and possibly ahead of FSmith/level with MSmith anyway, but he's also got the experience and nous to allow him to come off the bench and seize a game by the scruff of the neck (the 38-38 draw against Scotland springing immediately to mind where he rescued the game from Farrell having tried to throw it away).

Still in awe of his performance against Argentina in the RWC, and that was virtually all him. He marshalled everyone to play that way.

Best 10 for the here and now, imo, but it’s all about the RWC these days and he’s only getting older and more injury prone. I’d want to be getting as much experience into the Smiths as possible. Please , please, please let me get what I want.
I will always been a Ford fanboy but I think his time has gone, unfortunately, and I’ll never forgive anyone at the RFU for how we’ve wasted his talent.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I do get it (sort of) if Ford were match fit or in form. But he’s not. Credit in the bank et al, but Smith x 2 are the form and fit players! Selectorially Baffling makes some very odd decisions at times!

It is just a Safe Bet selection!

[Danno]

Yeah that's fair. I can see the rationale though, if they don't start racking up some wins then blood will be called for, and we've been petering out at the end of matches because we either under or over-manage them. I don't think we've scored in the last 20ish of a game since Ireland in the 6N and if you need a general to get on and boss a scoring opportunity then Ford is probably yer man

[p/d]

Well, reading 1 through 18 and it was like: yes, this is a good team. I can quibble over Spencer, but otherwise it's as good as we're going to get.

The rest, though...

What happens if Freeman goes down? If one of the centres goes down? Furbank is hardly a "pacy wing", so...

Madness.

And I'm not sold on any of Isiekwe, BCurry, or Dommers over other options, even if I like the latter two as players.

This is pretty much me right now.

And the vice captains thing is just another nail in making us laughing stocks. It’s wholly unnecessary and just sets us up for abuse! Why bother! What does putting that on a team sheet give you in terms of positives or fan engagement?

This.

Just grateful the word Replacement remains in vogue