England flyhalf - who loses out?

[Mikey Brown]

Maybe this could go in the Borthwick era thread, but you can never have too many Owen Farrell related threads going on at once.

I don’t in any way want to make this another attack/hate thread about the guy, but it feels all too obvious he’ll be back in the England setup. His selection defies form, fitness or (the usual measures of) performance on the pitch.

There can’t really be space for 4 fly-halves, even if two of them can play a second position, so surely something has got to give.

Finn Smith - was on a real high going in to the Lions tour but has already been sidelined for OF and I feel his stock has dropped a bit. I just hope his confidence hasn’t taken too much of a knock. I think he benefited a bit from ‘shiny new thing’ syndrome when coming in to the side for Marcus, but he is definitely a test player and one for the future.

Marcus Smith - similarly don’t feel the Lions tour has likely done him much good. I think he’s had a bit of unfair criticism, but equally hasn’t really been able to stamp his mark on many games recently. The pros/cons of being versatile remain unclear and feels like he needs a bit of a reset.

George Ford - the clear man in charge when he is given the reigns, but that’s only in the absence of the other 3 and I don’t know if that will count for enough. He’s just about young enough to go to the World Cup, but will SB want to miss out on developing the two Smiths?

It seems completely ridiculous the idea of dropping Ford after this Argentina series but it wouldn’t surprise me if Borthwick is considering it. I guess it might largely come down to the form of Marcus Smith. Equally it feels like a massively regressive/short-sighted move to drop one of our biggest attacking threats to fit two 32 year olds in to the squad.

[Puja]

Maybe this could go in the Borthwick era thread, but you can never have too many Owen Farrell related threads going on at once.

I don’t in any way want to make this another attack/hate thread about the guy, but it feels all too obvious he’ll be back in the England setup. His selection defies form, fitness or (the usual measures of) performance on the pitch.

There can’t really be space for 4 fly-halves, even if two of them can play a second position, so surely something has got to give.

Finn Smith - was on a real high going in to the Lions tour but has already been sidelined for OF and I feel his stock has dropped a bit. I just hope his confidence hasn’t taken too much of a knock. I think he benefited a bit from ‘shiny new thing’ syndrome when coming in to the side for Marcus, but he is definitely a test player and one for the future.

Marcus Smith - similarly don’t feel the Lions tour has likely done him much good. I think he’s had a bit of unfair criticism, but equally hasn’t really been able to stamp his mark on many games recently. The pros/cons of being versatile remain unclear and feels like he needs a bit of a reset.

George Ford - the clear man in charge when he is given the reigns, but that’s only in the absence of the other 3 and I don’t know if that will count for enough. He’s just about young enough to go to the World Cup, but will SB want to miss out on developing the two Smiths?

It seems completely ridiculous the idea of dropping Ford after this Argentina series but it wouldn’t surprise me if Borthwick is considering it. I guess it might largely come down to the form of Marcus Smith. Equally it feels like a massively regressive/short-sighted move to drop one of our biggest attacking threats to fit two 32 year olds in to the squad.

On the face of it, it's a no-brainer - Fazlet is so far behind the other three on form and potential that he's not even in the frame of the photo-finish. It would be inconceivable for Serious Business to seriously promote him over one of the others. However, **tHe iNtAnGibLeS** have resulted in him being picked before, albeit never from this far back. I'd like to IBWT and expect that he wouldn't do it, but I can't quite summon that trust given that Fazlet is currently in the Lions XXIII off zero form and zero logic - he has the capacity to defy any and all selection logic.

If we assume that we **must** have Fazlet, then I would agree with you that Ford is the one on the chopping block, as he has always been. It's wild considering he'd be my starting 10 right now, but I'd rather we dropped the 32 year old from the squad than one of the young prospects.

With good luck, Fazlet will think about the booing he got on the Lions tour, look at the young talent that he'd be blocking, decide he's had enough of fan obloquy, and stay unavailable for England. With bad luck, Itoje will be ruled out of the AIs through the shocking and completely unforeseen discovery that one can't play 66 lots of 80 minutes across 24 months taking only a five week gap between seasons, without it wrecking your body, and we'll end up with Fazlet as captain again.

Puja

[FKAS]

We're within a chance of having a long term backline of:

9. Mitchell
10. F Smith
11. IFW
12. S Atkinson
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

Add in a bench of 21. JvP, 22. M Smith and 23. Roebuck and that could do us well until the next world cup and beyond. Bit harsh on Ford who's in cracking form but Marcus covers 10 and 15 and Fin is the man in possession (they're also both quite a bit younger so got to have an eye on the world cup and beyond). Unfortunately it seems inevitable the Ice Man will return for either Seb or Marcus despite being nearly 34.

[Banquo]

We're within a chance of having a long term backline of:

9. Mitchell
10. F Smith
11. IFW
12. S Atkinson
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

Add in a bench of 21. JvP, 22. M Smith and 23. Roebuck and that could do us well until the next world cup and beyond. Bit harsh on Ford who's in cracking form but Marcus covers 10 and 15 and Fin is the man in possession (they're also both quite a bit younger so got to have an eye on the world cup and beyond). Unfortunately it seems inevitable the Ice Man will return for either Seb or Marcus despite being nearly 34.

Quite a leap of faith on Seb'n'oli who haven't played together AFAIK? Nor indeed that midfield. But huzza in theory- tho I'm increasingly thinking that Freeman at 13 would be great-but-dependent-on-Saints.

[FKAS]

We're within a chance of having a long term backline of:

9. Mitchell
10. F Smith
11. IFW
12. S Atkinson
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

Add in a bench of 21. JvP, 22. M Smith and 23. Roebuck and that could do us well until the next world cup and beyond. Bit harsh on Ford who's in cracking form but Marcus covers 10 and 15 and Fin is the man in possession (they're also both quite a bit younger so got to have an eye on the world cup and beyond). Unfortunately it seems inevitable the Ice Man will return for either Seb or Marcus despite being nearly 34.

Quite a leap of faith on Seb'n'oli who haven't played together AFAIK? Nor indeed that midfield. But huzza in theory- tho I'm increasingly thinking that Freeman at 13 would be great-but-dependent-on-Saints.

It's a centre combination that in theory should work. You're right though the proof would be in the performance.

[fivepointer]

STOP IT NOW!!!!!

Dont even raise the possibility of a Farrell return.

Sodding Lions and their flipping head coach.

[Banquo]

We're within a chance of having a long term backline of:

9. Mitchell
10. F Smith
11. IFW
12. S Atkinson
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

Add in a bench of 21. JvP, 22. M Smith and 23. Roebuck and that could do us well until the next world cup and beyond. Bit harsh on Ford who's in cracking form but Marcus covers 10 and 15 and Fin is the man in possession (they're also both quite a bit younger so got to have an eye on the world cup and beyond). Unfortunately it seems inevitable the Ice Man will return for either Seb or Marcus despite being nearly 34.

Quite a leap of faith on Seb'n'oli who haven't played together AFAIK? Nor indeed that midfield. But huzza in theory- tho I'm increasingly thinking that Freeman at 13 would be great-but-dependent-on-Saints.

It's a centre combination that in theory should work. You're right though the proof would be in the performance.

Indeed. Not convinced on Oli tbh, but again not sure he's had a fair go (mate)

[Banquo]

STOP IT NOW!!!!!

Dont even raise the possibility of a Farrell return.

Sodding Lions and their flipping head coach.

Its so paralysingly sort of annoying....it would definitely set us back.

[fivepointer]

STOP IT NOW!!!!!

Dont even raise the possibility of a Farrell return.

Sodding Lions and their flipping head coach.

Its so paralysingly sort of annoying....it would definitely set us back.

Its infuriating,. This team, which is developing nicely, certainly does not need Farrell in it.

[Banquo]

STOP IT NOW!!!!!

Dont even raise the possibility of a Farrell return.

Sodding Lions and their flipping head coach.

Its so paralysingly sort of annoying....it would definitely set us back.

Its infuriating,. This team, which is developing nicely, certainly does not need Farrell in it.

...never did...nor his dad as a player

[Mikey Brown]

We're within a chance of having a long term backline of:

9. Mitchell
10. F Smith
11. IFW
12. S Atkinson
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

Add in a bench of 21. JvP, 22. M Smith and 23. Roebuck and that could do us well until the next world cup and beyond. Bit harsh on Ford who's in cracking form but Marcus covers 10 and 15 and Fin is the man in possession (they're also both quite a bit younger so got to have an eye on the world cup and beyond). Unfortunately it seems inevitable the Ice Man will return for either Seb or Marcus despite being nearly 34.

Quite a leap of faith on Seb'n'oli who haven't played together AFAIK? Nor indeed that midfield. But huzza in theory- tho I'm increasingly thinking that Freeman at 13 would be great-but-dependent-on-Saints.

It's a centre combination that in theory should work. You're right though the proof would be in the performance.

Not that it’s really relevant to England now, but did they ever play together for Worcester? It’s crazy that could have been their midfield trio.

I suppose I’m happy you’re not all as convinced as me that Farrell is 100% back in the England squad (now he’s a test Lion again) but it seems naive to me. Borthwick won’t be able to resist it.

[Danno]

I still want Ford in the squad regardless of whether he plays, he should basically be a second (good) attack coach until he takes his boots off and goes into it formally

[Scrumhead]

I feel like the Farrell scenario is a good test of Borthwick’s strength of character.

I hope, he takes a bigger picture view and sees that reintroducing Farrell would be a backwards step.

I’m also hoping that this is where the rest period from the Lions tour plays its part.

As it stands, Ford is the only one of the four 10s who’ll have any time to build form before the AIs. After his performances (and leadership) over the summer, he deserves to start. Even more so if he’s playing well and the others only have a couple of games under their belt.

I’d have him starting in the AIs and let form be the decider on the ranking behind him. F. Smith is the most likely to take the shirt, but I feel like he needs to earn it back. Same goes for Marcus.

The bottom line is, 10 is not a problem position. We don’t need Farrell there so let’s draw a line under it and accept his time has passed.

Obviously 12 might be regarded as more of an issue, but after a tour where it looks like we have viable long term solutions to a long term problem, selecting Farrell as a centre would be a shockingly poor decision.

As with Ford, Atkinson and Ojomoh will be playing more quickly than Farrell so if they can pick up where they left off, there would be no justification to pick him.

[FKAS]

Quite a leap of faith on Seb'n'oli who haven't played together AFAIK? Nor indeed that midfield. But huzza in theory- tho I'm increasingly thinking that Freeman at 13 would be great-but-dependent-on-Saints.

It's a centre combination that in theory should work. You're right though the proof would be in the performance.

Not that it’s really relevant to England now, but did they ever play together for Worcester? It’s crazy that could have been their midfield trio.

I suppose I’m happy you’re not all as convinced as me that Farrell is 100% back in the England squad (now he’s a test Lion again) but it seems naive to me. Borthwick won’t be able to resist it.

I think Fin played with both but can't see that Oli and Seb played together in the Wuss first team.

I agree with Danno, would be mad to leave Ford out of the squad. Even if he's third choice he's an ideal mentor and leader to have in the squad, as close to a player/coach as we have. Pollock recently talked up Ford's influence on him when he joined the England squad.

[Epaminondas Pules]

We're within a chance of having a long term backline of:

9. Mitchell
10. F Smith
11. IFW
12. S Atkinson
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

Add in a bench of 21. JvP, 22. M Smith and 23. Roebuck and that could do us well until the next world cup and beyond. Bit harsh on Ford who's in cracking form but Marcus covers 10 and 15 and Fin is the man in possession (they're also both quite a bit younger so got to have an eye on the world cup and beyond). Unfortunately it seems inevitable the Ice Man will return for either Seb or Marcus despite being nearly 34.

Quite a leap of faith on Seb'n'oli who haven't played together AFAIK? Nor indeed that midfield. But huzza in theory- tho I'm increasingly thinking that Freeman at 13 would be great-but-dependent-on-Saints.

Only ever trained together. Seb came through in the 21/22 season at Wuss, but largely because Lawrence was injured in round 10 of the Prem that season and only came back for the Prem Cup final.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It's a centre combination that in theory should work. You're right though the proof would be in the performance.

Not that it’s really relevant to England now, but did they ever play together for Worcester? It’s crazy that could have been their midfield trio.

I suppose I’m happy you’re not all as convinced as me that Farrell is 100% back in the England squad (now he’s a test Lion again) but it seems naive to me. Borthwick won’t be able to resist it.

I think Fin played with both but can't see that Oli and Seb played together in the Wuss first team.

I agree with Danno, would be mad to leave Ford out of the squad. Even if he's third choice he's an ideal mentor and leader to have in the squad, as close to a player/coach as we have. Pollock recently talked up Ford's influence on him when he joined the England squad.

Fin played with both individually in the first team, but never Ollie and Seb together. They all will have trained together obvs.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Maybe this could go in the Borthwick era thread, but you can never have too many Owen Farrell related threads going on at once.

I don’t in any way want to make this another attack/hate thread about the guy, but it feels all too obvious he’ll be back in the England setup. His selection defies form, fitness or (the usual measures of) performance on the pitch.

There can’t really be space for 4 fly-halves, even if two of them can play a second position, so surely something has got to give.

Finn Smith - was on a real high going in to the Lions tour but has already been sidelined for OF and I feel his stock has dropped a bit. I just hope his confidence hasn’t taken too much of a knock. I think he benefited a bit from ‘shiny new thing’ syndrome when coming in to the side for Marcus, but he is definitely a test player and one for the future.

Marcus Smith - similarly don’t feel the Lions tour has likely done him much good. I think he’s had a bit of unfair criticism, but equally hasn’t really been able to stamp his mark on many games recently. The pros/cons of being versatile remain unclear and feels like he needs a bit of a reset.

George Ford - the clear man in charge when he is given the reigns, but that’s only in the absence of the other 3 and I don’t know if that will count for enough. He’s just about young enough to go to the World Cup, but will SB want to miss out on developing the two Smiths?

It seems completely ridiculous the idea of dropping Ford after this Argentina series but it wouldn’t surprise me if Borthwick is considering it. I guess it might largely come down to the form of Marcus Smith. Equally it feels like a massively regressive/short-sighted move to drop one of our biggest attacking threats to fit two 32 year olds in to the squad.

Has his stock gone down? I know Faz Snr hasn't picked him, but he's played well on tour, and really should have been in the test squad ahead of Jnr. He's been the best 10 behind Russell, but the alleged versatility of the other two is probably what got them selected over the better and more in form player.

[Mikey Brown]

I feel like he started well, then had a couple of fairly naff appearances, then was overshadowed by Farrell’s appearance in the squad.

Nothing major, not saying he’s become a worse player just that he was on a real hot streak before. It’s more feeling that Ford and Farrell have moved up, rather than Finn going down, but it’s all relative. I do think the media hype see-saw had swung from Marcus to Finn in a pretty OTT way though.

[Oakboy]

So, it's the 6N, one match to go, win it and it's the GS. Injuries stack up and we lose our 10s or 12s. Is it then reasonable to bring in Farrell? As long as the bloke is vertical and at least one eye is functioning he will get picked now he's eligible. It's just a question of the scenario and the extent to which his presence is deemed necessary.

If SB picks him, even in the squad, ahead of any of the other three FHs or any of Dingwall, Atkinson, Woodward or Ojomoh, that would be an outrage.

The lessons of history need learning. Persevering with Tuilagi and Billy V long after injury prone-ness/form made it illogical, seriously held back the development of others. Arguably clinging to Care and Youngs did similar harm. It's not just international game time lost that matters, it is the effect on the confidence of others and the progress of the squad collective character.

English rugby was a better place without Farrell in it. I wish he had been a success in France and stayed there. As a returning failure he could now do serious harm to progress.

[Banquo]

I feel like he started well, then had a couple of fairly naff appearances, then was overshadowed by Farrell’s appearance in the squad.

Nothing major, not saying he’s become a worse player just that he was on a real hot streak before. It’s more feeling that Ford and Farrell have moved up, rather than Finn going down, but it’s all relative. I do think the media hype see-saw had swung from Marcus to Finn in a pretty OTT way though.

Fin with one n I feel has had a slightly bad rap from you on this tour. Lions were clearly selling a big dummy as to how they were going to play in the tests, and as a result he was a given a slightly weird hand to play with.

[Banquo]

So, it's the 6N, one match to go, win it and it's the GS. Injuries stack up and we lose our 10s or 12s. Is it then reasonable to bring in Farrell? As long as the bloke is vertical and at least one eye is functioning he will get picked now he's eligible. It's just a question of the scenario and the extent to which his presence is deemed necessary.

If SB picks him, even in the squad, ahead of any of the other three FHs or any of Dingwall, Atkinson, Woodward or Ojomoh, that would be an outrage.

The lessons of history need learning. Persevering with Tuilagi and Billy V long after injury prone-ness/form made it illogical, seriously held back the development of others. Arguably clinging to Care and Youngs did similar harm. It's not just international game time lost that matters, it is the effect on the confidence of others and the progress of the squad collective character.

English rugby was a better place without Farrell in it. I wish he had been a success in France and stayed there. As a returning failure he could now do serious harm to progress.

Preaching to the choir, bob on Dors.

[Danno]

Playing devil's advocate, but we weren't exactly flush with SH or IC alternatives when waiting for Tuilagi to manage 10 minutes of fitness or handing more caps to Youngs (I'd also comment that dropping Care for Willie Heinz was insane).

Maybe Spencer could have done a job but he was 2nd choice at Sarries at the time and hasn't exactly blown us away in recent years.

[Skalyba]

Maybe this could go in the Borthwick era thread, but you can never have too many Owen Farrell related threads going on at once.

I don’t in any way want to make this another attack/hate thread about the guy, but it feels all too obvious he’ll be back in the England setup. His selection defies form, fitness or (the usual measures of) performance on the pitch.

There can’t really be space for 4 fly-halves, even if two of them can play a second position, so surely something has got to give.

Finn Smith - was on a real high going in to the Lions tour but has already been sidelined for OF and I feel his stock has dropped a bit. I just hope his confidence hasn’t taken too much of a knock. I think he benefited a bit from ‘shiny new thing’ syndrome when coming in to the side for Marcus, but he is definitely a test player and one for the future.

Marcus Smith - similarly don’t feel the Lions tour has likely done him much good. I think he’s had a bit of unfair criticism, but equally hasn’t really been able to stamp his mark on many games recently. The pros/cons of being versatile remain unclear and feels like he needs a bit of a reset.

George Ford - the clear man in charge when he is given the reigns, but that’s only in the absence of the other 3 and I don’t know if that will count for enough. He’s just about young enough to go to the World Cup, but will SB want to miss out on developing the two Smiths?

It seems completely ridiculous the idea of dropping Ford after this Argentina series but it wouldn’t surprise me if Borthwick is considering it. I guess it might largely come down to the form of Marcus Smith. Equally it feels like a massively regressive/short-sighted move to drop one of our biggest attacking threats to fit two 32 year olds in to the squad.

I don't see it. This year is always one of evolution and I think SB is clear where we stand on 10 - Fin get the game time over the next 12 months with Ford on standby if there's an injury. They fight it out for the starting spot in the world cup the following year depending on form. Marcus in first pick on the bench, 3rd choice to start - like or not he's our Damien McKenzie, never quite trusted to start a run of games, but the role of the dice (at 10 or 15) when you need to change things up. Putting OF in there just muddles it.

Potentially he challenges for the 12 spot but I think the coaches realise how long that's been an issue - we have a few players coming through now who can make that role their own, there's no reason to muddy the waters, esp. when it's at best a short term solution.

[Mr Mwenda]

I'm with Skalyba here. Let's not assume Faz jr is in before it happens. When OF makes a big announcement saying the lions experience has rekindled his hunger for international rugby with Samuel Bebys making a statement that England lack leadership then I will start getting worried.

[Danno]

Oh you sweet summer children