Scotland v England Sat 24 Feb 4.45pm

[Spiffy]

SB wasn't responsible for so much miss poor execution.

He did select the players who showed poor execution so he has to bear some responsibility.

[16th man]

Was your favourite bit where he stepped two players and the offloaded to nobody or where he fell off a tackle on vdM and then hobbled back into the line having given himself a dead leg or was it where he let the ball go through his hands so he could head it to the opposition backs to score a run away try or was it when he jumped onto vdM as a second tackler didn't stop the offload and as he'd committed meant there was no cover defence?

Furbank made some mistakes sure, but blaming him for Ford throwing the ball into his face is some stretch!

Poor pass from Ford but Furbank still let it go through his hands.

He's committed to a line, must be quite shocking when you look up to see an end on end, tumbling pass looping in at face height, a good couple of feet before you expect it to be at chest height.

Wasn't the first or last time one of our backs hit a line, only to get a pass to the face.

[Mr Mwenda]

I think there is scope for both Ford's pass to be poor and for Furbank to have still managed to catch it. Disappointing from both players.

[Banquo]

Yes, sorry if your rose-tints re Ford get misty.

?? I call as I see, Ford wasn’t great but he wasn’t why we lost that match. You are a tad reductive when analysing tbh.

To be fair, far too many players not being great is the problem. The question is whether they are poorly coached, not up to it or both. I do feel Ford's time is passed.

That wasn’t really the question though

[Banquo]

SB wasn't responsible for so much miss poor execution.

He is accountable though. Some of it was caused by bad selection and the mindset which leads to some errors and shocking game management…and the kick first mindset is evident. Why we were kicking- and so badly- when we were 3 scores behind with 15 to go..

[Banquo]

Furbank made some mistakes sure, but blaming him for Ford throwing the ball into his face is some stretch!

Poor pass from Ford but Furbank still let it go through his hands.

He's committed to a line, must be quite shocking when you look up to see an end on end, tumbling pass looping in at face height, a good couple of feet before you expect it to be at chest height.

Wasn't the first or last time one of our backs hit a line, only to get a pass to the face.

I’d think part of it is a lack of familiarity with each others play to be kind.

[SixAndAHalf]

Test

[SixAndAHalf]

I think the forwards in general were on top in set pieces although we overplayed our hand in the early scrums. Thought the defence also looked good. The attack was abysmal from my perspective and the kicking game not great either. Lawrence I reckon had a genuine 1/10 in that I can’t remember a single contribution which wasn’t negative (though I rate him highly)

I think Borthers has exposed himself by ignoring players such as Mercer for not playing “his way” and also for his selection of his mates as the coaching team (compared to Rassie who scours globally for the best available). Hard to believe Wigglesworth is the best attack coach we could get for example. I would say Borthers should and will be under enormous pressure if we don’t get a result in the next two games.

With the news re Jamie George this week I do question the decision to make him captain. Seems to me it would be an additional burden he probably didn’t need…

[Banquo]

I think the forwards in general were on top in set pieces although we overplayed our hand in the early scrums. Thought the defence also looked good. The attack was abysmal from my perspective and the kicking game not great either. Lawrence I reckon had a genuine 1/10 in that I can’t remember a single contribution which wasn’t negative (though I rate him highly)

I think Borthers has exposed himself by ignoring players such as Mercer for not playing “his way” and also for his selection of his mates as the coaching team (compared to Rassie who scours globally for the best available). Hard to believe Wigglesworth is the best attack coach we could get for example. I would say Borthers should and will be under enormous pressure if we don’t get a result in the next two games.

With the news re Jamie George this week I do question the decision to make him captain. Seems to me it would be an additional burden he probably didn’t need…

...the defence that conceded 30 points, and missed 20 tackles?

[Epaminondas Pules]

I think the forwards in general were on top in set pieces although we overplayed our hand in the early scrums. Thought the defence also looked good. The attack was abysmal from my perspective and the kicking game not great either. Lawrence I reckon had a genuine 1/10 in that I can’t remember a single contribution which wasn’t negative (though I rate him highly)

I think Borthers has exposed himself by ignoring players such as Mercer for not playing “his way” and also for his selection of his mates as the coaching team (compared to Rassie who scours globally for the best available). Hard to believe Wigglesworth is the best attack coach we could get for example. I would say Borthers should and will be under enormous pressure if we don’t get a result in the next two games.

With the news re Jamie George this week I do question the decision to make him captain. Seems to me it would be an additional burden he probably didn’t need…

...the defence that conceded 30 points, and missed 20 tackles?

<like>

[Puja]

Just drained after that. So many times in the first half of us doing about 10-11 things really well followed by someone, who is supposed to be international quality, just making a basic fucking skill error. Then that second half when we stopped doing the 10-11 things really well. Or the last 10 minutes where we were 9 points down and kept deciding to set up for a really slow and ponderous box-kick to give the ball back.

I do plan on doing a m-b-m, partly because I think it'll help me to be acerbic about it, and I want to see if there's any grounds for hope. But that game was winnable and we didn't and it was all our own fault. Abysmal.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Weirdly actually reminded me of Scotland playing against France last week, except somehow it was England deciding to park the bus when multiple scores down.

[Banquo]

. I would say Borthers should and will be under enormous pressure if we don’t get a result in the next two games.

we will get a couple of results all right....

[Cameo]

Or the last 10 minutes where we were 9 points down and kept deciding to set up for a really slow and ponderous box-kick to give the ball back.

Puja

That, to me sums up England over the last four or five years. I don't understand it. Apart from the tries, you looked so blunt in attack though even when you did run it. I felt we (Scotland) let you in the game and then stopped playing early but can see why you would kick long to this team and put it on them to create something.

On the plus side for you:

- The defence is a bit scary when it works. At the moment it provides a good answer to the question "why doesn't everyone blitz" but, if Jones gets time, It'll be a worry for opponents.

- Thought you were good in defensive rucks - especially given you only gave 5 pens away. On another day I feel like that could be a few more but you have a bunch of players who know how to make a ruck a mess without having to get their hands involved and risk penalties.

[Danno]

Underhill was solid. IFW looked good even if you ignore his try and I can see why Gatland has an itchy butthole about him.

This is really poor.

[Spiffy]

Or the last 10 minutes where we were 9 points down and kept deciding to set up for a really slow and ponderous box-kick to give the ball back.

Puja

That, to me sums up England over the last four or five years. I don't understand it. Apart from the tries, you looked so blunt in attack though even when you did run it. I felt we (Scotland) let you in the game and then stopped playing early but can see why you would kick long to this team and put it on them to create something.

On the plus side for you:

- The defence is a bit scary when it works. At the moment it provides a good answer to the question "why doesn't everyone blitz" but, if Jones gets time, It'll be a worry for opponents.

- Thought you were good in defensive rucks - especially given you only gave 5 pens away. On another day I feel like that could be a few more but you have a bunch of players who know how to make a ruck a mess without having to get their hands involved and risk penalties.

The 5 pens may have been a reflection of the reffing. England got away with a lot of flopping/sealing. A different ref might well have pinged them more frequently.
After two narrow wins and one loss, the England problems seem pretty evident. At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious :

- A fairly ordinary player pool, many of them short on basic skills and decision making
- Poor selection, even from that limited pool
- Lack of any kind of clear or consistent tactics/game plan/organization
- No real on field leadership

Some of these these things can be fixed, but perhaps not under the regime of Super Blunder, who seems quite limited in his concepts of coaching an international rugby team.

[Mellsblue]

Kolisi reckons SA took 14 games to masterJones’s defence. Strap yourselves in, it’s going to be a long 12 months.

[Banquo]

Or the last 10 minutes where we were 9 points down and kept deciding to set up for a really slow and ponderous box-kick to give the ball back.

Puja

That, to me sums up England over the last four or five years. I don't understand it. Apart from the tries, you looked so blunt in attack though even when you did run it. I felt we (Scotland) let you in the game and then stopped playing early but can see why you would kick long to this team and put it on them to create something.

On the plus side for you:

- The defence is a bit scary when it works. At the moment it provides a good answer to the question "why doesn't everyone blitz" but, if Jones gets time, It'll be a worry for opponents.

- Thought you were good in defensive rucks - especially given you only gave 5 pens away. On another day I feel like that could be a few more but you have a bunch of players who know how to make a ruck a mess without having to get their hands involved and risk penalties.

The 5 pens may have been a reflection of the reffing. England got away with a lot of flopping/sealing. A different ref might well have pinged them more frequently.
After two narrow wins and one loss, the England problems seem pretty evident. At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious :

- A fairly ordinary player pool, many of them short on basic skills and decision making
- Poor selection, even from that limited pool
- Lack of any kind of clear or consistent tactics/game plan/organization
- No real on field leadership

Some of these these things can be fixed, but perhaps not under the regime of Super Blunder, who seems quite limited in his concepts of coaching an international rugby team.

indeed, esp the bolded bit

[fivepointer]

Just drained after that. So many times in the first half of us doing about 10-11 things really well followed by someone, who is supposed to be international quality, just making a basic fucking skill error. Then that second half when we stopped doing the 10-11 things really well. Or the last 10 minutes where we were 9 points down and kept deciding to set up for a really slow and ponderous box-kick to give the ball back.

I do plan on doing a m-b-m, partly because I think it'll help me to be acerbic about it, and I want to see if there's any grounds for hope. But that game was winnable and we didn't and it was all our own fault. Abysmal.

Puja

That was my frustration. First half we did do some good things. There was a bit of ambition and some fluent attack. 2nd half we couldnt be arsed to even try anything.

The level of errors - often basic when under no real pressure - was simply horrendous.

[Mellsblue]

It was ‘interesting’ how we defaulted to kick and chase as soon as things started going wrong. It’s all very well picking Furbank to start, throwing on CCS etc but if your gameplan and prep doesn’t empower them…

[francoisfou]

Is Mitchell going to be fit in two weeks? What’s the extent of his injury? If fit, Shit Bag should pick him and F Smith to start. As an aside, I wonder if Owen Farrell has a wry smile on his face after these three disappointing matches?

[p/d]

It was ‘interesting’ how we defaulted to kick and chase as soon as things started going wrong. It’s all very well picking Furbank to start, throwing on CCS etc but if your gameplan and prep doesn’t empower them…

The game plan had little to no connect to the use of the bench.

[Banquo]

Is Mitchell going to be fit in two weeks? What’s the extent of his injury? If fit, Shit Bag should pick him and F Smith to start. As an aside, I wonder if Owen Farrell has a wry smile on his face after these three disappointing matches?

think he's out til after the 6n, knee ligaments

[Banquo]

It was ‘interesting’ how we defaulted to kick and chase as soon as things started going wrong. It’s all very well picking Furbank to start, throwing on CCS etc but if your gameplan and prep doesn’t empower them…

The game plan had little to no connect to the use of the bench.

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

[Cameo]

It was ‘interesting’ how we defaulted to kick and chase as soon as things started going wrong. It’s all very well picking Furbank to start, throwing on CCS etc but if your gameplan and prep doesn’t empower them…

The game plan had little to no connect to the use of the bench.

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

I was surprised by that comment, especially in relation to 10, 12, 13. Fair enough if you have picked a young combo, but before that combo from today has 15 starts together I imagine at least one amd maybe two of them will have been replaced.

I've been thinking about this and I think Borthwick might not be doing the team any favours by trying to simplify the attack. A lot of it seems to depend on powerful runners making ground but that relies on passes being slick phase after phase and runners timing their runs right. One or two aren't right or you get slow ball and, at international level, you grind to a complete halt. England then don't have much deception. In a way, being more complex and having more strike plays might be a bit simpler as it doesn't depend on repeated perfection.