England vs New Zealand - Saturday

[Banquo]

I do get it (sort of) if Ford were match fit or in form. But he’s not. Credit in the bank et al, but Smith x 2 are the form and fit players! Selectorially Baffling makes some very odd decisions at times!

It is just a Safe Bet selection!

Not sure its a Safe Bet, more a Substitute Ballsup

[Epaminondas Pules]

I do get it (sort of) if Ford were match fit or in form. But he’s not. Credit in the bank et al, but Smith x 2 are the form and fit players! Selectorially Baffling makes some very odd decisions at times!

It is just a Safe Bet selection!

Not sure its a Safe Bet, more a Substitute Ballsup

It’s both !

[FKAS]

I do get it (sort of) if Ford were match fit or in form. But he’s not. Credit in the bank et al, but Smith x 2 are the form and fit players! Selectorially Baffling makes some very odd decisions at times!

It is just a Safe Bet selection!

I agree. For me if they are all fit and in form then I'd select Ford every time for this game but as EP says, he's not. He's not played in weeks so he's there and we're hoping he's going to repeat his normal trick of returning from injury in form.

It's the same reason I'm unhappy with the Dombrandt selection doubly so as he's got no credit in the bank.

[Mikey Brown]

Well, reading 1 through 18 and it was like: yes, this is a good team. I can quibble over Spencer, but otherwise it's as good as we're going to get.

The rest, though...

What happens if Freeman goes down? If one of the centres goes down? Furbank is hardly a "pacy wing", so...

Madness.

And I'm not sold on any of Isiekwe, BCurry, or Dommers over other options, even if I like the latter two as players.

This is pretty much me right now.

And the vice captains thing is just another nail in making us laughing stocks. It’s wholly unnecessary and just sets us up for abuse! Why bother! What does putting that on a team sheet give you in terms of positives or fan engagement?

Yeah I feel like all this does is project a lack of certainty/confidence in what we're doing. Of course there's a leadership team, but surely only one of them is talking to the ref after George goes off.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Ford wasn’t even in the squad, gets dragged in and is now in the 23! I’m hoping it is cause Fin has a knock!

[Banquo]

I do get it (sort of) if Ford were match fit or in form. But he’s not. Credit in the bank et al, but Smith x 2 are the form and fit players! Selectorially Baffling makes some very odd decisions at times!

It is just a Safe Bet selection!

I agree. For me if they are all fit and in form then I'd select Ford every time for this game but as EP says, he's not. He's not played in weeks so he's there and we're hoping he's going to repeat his normal trick of returning from injury in form.

It's the same reason I'm unhappy with the Dombrandt selection doubly so as he's got no credit in the bank.

Yes, its not a great selection, and its not forward looking in areas it could be tbh.

[p/d]

With no vice captain from 9-15 then Smith was always going to miss out to Ford.

[Mellsblue]

If nothing else, the controversial selection of Ford at least gives us an idea of timescales for when players and coaches are no longer viewed through Tiger tinted spectacles.

[Oakboy]

With no vice captain from 9-15 then Smith was always going to miss out to Ford.

The vice-captain debacle is just a symptom of the wrong captain being appointed. Make Itoje captain now and the whole nonsense is avoided. Furbank as v-c to cover an Itoje injury/yellow card would be reasonable.

[Danno]

Nah I don't a FB taking Capt duties. Get your overall point though.

[Mellsblue]

With no vice captain from 9-15 then Smith was always going to miss out to Ford.

The vice-captain debacle is just a symptom of the wrong captain being appointed. Make Itoje captain now and the whole nonsense is avoided. Furbank as v-c to cover an Itoje injury/yellow card would be reasonable.

If multiple vice-captains are a symptom of choosing the wrong captain then a lot of teams are choosing the wrong captain. It’s just another ´marginal gain’ that’s probably nothing of the sort.

[Mellsblue]

Nah I don't a FB taking Capt duties. Get your overall point though.

Iirc, Furbank was Northampton captain when Lawes was injured/absent last season and that went ok. A modern, elite test rugby team should have enough leaders and be coached well enough for a captain to play in any position, imo.

[Stom]

Ford wasn’t even in the squad, gets dragged in and is now in the 23! I’m hoping it is cause Fin has a knock!

Surely then Lozowski would get the nod...

[Spiffy]

Ben Curry ahead of established hard nut Underhill against a team like NZ, which will certainly need mowing down, is an odd choice.

[Danno]

Nah I don't a FB taking Capt duties. Get your overall point though.

Iirc, Furbank was Northampton captain when Lawes was injured/absent last season and that went ok. A modern, elite test rugby team should have enough leaders and be coached well enough for a captain to play in any position, imo.

It's just the extra running imo. Especially from FB, he's already covering more ground than anyone and no-one seems to be covering from the bench. I want those legs fresh when it's on and if he's doing another 500m a game jogging to and from Sir it seems a bit ott

[Epaminondas Pules]

Ben Curry ahead of established hard nut Underhill against a team like NZ, which will certainly need mowing down, is an odd choice.

It is if you’ve not watched Ben Curry much. Of the 19 - 21 on the bench Curry is not the one I’d pick to single out for this.

[Danno]

Ford wasn’t even in the squad, gets dragged in and is now in the 23! I’m hoping it is cause Fin has a knock!

Can't see what else it would be. But who knows. I do have some sympathy for closing a game out with experience, but you're right

[Spiffy]

Ben Curry ahead of established hard nut Underhill against a team like NZ, which will certainly need mowing down, is an odd choice.

It is if you’ve not watched Ben Curry much. Of the 19 - 21 on the bench Curry is not the one I’d pick to single out for this.

Maybe. But he is the only real flanker and I'm comparing like with like. Underhill generally plays well and makes a telling contribution. What's he done wrong to get dropped?

[Puja]

Ben Curry ahead of established hard nut Underhill against a team like NZ, which will certainly need mowing down, is an odd choice.

It is if you’ve not watched Ben Curry much. Of the 19 - 21 on the bench Curry is not the one I’d pick to single out for this.

Maybe. But he is the only real flanker and I'm comparing like with like. Underhill generally plays well and makes a telling contribution. What's he done wrong to get dropped?

I suspect the answer lies in the efficacy at defending rucks, given that England got turned over more against New Zealand in the summer than in all their other tests this year combined.

Not that I've noticed much against Underhill in that respect, but it is a forte of BCurry's and presumably they think he's the man they can bring in to make a difference if they're struggling.

Puja

[FKAS]

It is if you’ve not watched Ben Curry much. Of the 19 - 21 on the bench Curry is not the one I’d pick to single out for this.

Maybe. But he is the only real flanker and I'm comparing like with like. Underhill generally plays well and makes a telling contribution. What's he done wrong to get dropped?

I suspect the answer lies in the efficacy at defending rucks, given that England got turned over more against New Zealand in the summer than in all their other tests this year combined.

Not that I've noticed much against Underhill in that respect, but it is a forte of BCurry's and presumably they think he's the man they can bring in to make a difference if they're struggling.

Puja

Wasn't it an error from Ben Curry defending a ruck a couple of 6Ns back that gifted France a try down the English blindside?

I don't think Ben Curry is a good selection as I would have preferred more bench impact, however, he is a leader and a captain at Sale and if we're removing captain material from the pack with a 6:2 bench then having someone who captains their club (and I think you're right he organises the fringe defence) might not be a bad idea.

[Mikey Brown]

Ironically, probably the best answer for the 23 shirt in a 6:2 split is Farrell. That’s assuming you don’t realise the best answer to a 6:2 split is a 5:3 split.

He's still got it!

[Which Tyler]

Joe Marler's left camp and unlikely to return?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... ugby-union

Apparently left camp before making the tweet criticising the Haka.
IMO - we know he struggles with his mental health, though not the details - it's possible he's in a negative/destructive spiral right now.

[Puja]

Maybe. But he is the only real flanker and I'm comparing like with like. Underhill generally plays well and makes a telling contribution. What's he done wrong to get dropped?

I suspect the answer lies in the efficacy at defending rucks, given that England got turned over more against New Zealand in the summer than in all their other tests this year combined.

Not that I've noticed much against Underhill in that respect, but it is a forte of BCurry's and presumably they think he's the man they can bring in to make a difference if they're struggling.

Puja

Wasn't it an error from Ben Curry defending a ruck a couple of 6Ns back that gifted France a try down the English blindside?

I don't think Ben Curry is a good selection as I would have preferred more bench impact, however, he is a leader and a captain at Sale and if we're removing captain material from the pack with a 6:2 bench then having someone who captains their club (and I think you're right he organises the fringe defence) might not be a bad idea.

I more meant defending our own ball from jackallers, rather than tackling on the fringes. You are correct it was his error at the fringe of a ruck that gave up a try a few years back (against Scotland), but that was his first full cap in a team with a lot of flux, so I'm not going to damn him for that.

Puja

[TheDasher]

Ben Curry ahead of established hard nut Underhill against a team like NZ, which will certainly need mowing down, is an odd choice.

It is if you’ve not watched Ben Curry much. Of the 19 - 21 on the bench Curry is not the one I’d pick to single out for this.

Maybe. But he is the only real flanker and I'm comparing like with like. Underhill generally plays well and makes a telling contribution. What's he done wrong to get dropped?

I'm a huge Underhill fan but I think what counts against him sometimes is that whilst he's a world-class tackler, other good tacklers who offer more in other areas would make those tackles too, just not as well... but they do more in attack...

[Puja]

Joe Marler's left camp and unlikely to return?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... ugby-union

Yeesh. Hope he's doing okay - I know his mental health isn't always great, so I hope it's just to spend time with family. Wouldn't surprise me if he retired from international again from here - he's not *needed* anymore with the emergence of Baxter and, with his brain issues, he might think it better to spend more time at home than be in training camps as third choice.

Puja