England vs SA

[fivepointer]

So many questions.

Think you have to give El Abd a bit of time to settle in.

But the numbers are stark and need to improve, even if at times against NZ we did defend pretty well i thought. Its the consistency thats the problem. We put in a good shift then clock off and look all at sea. That and our 1v1 tackle success rate in particular is no way good enough.

[Oakboy]

From Warburton’s column:
‘Against Australia, England conceded 17 line breaks. In the defeat by the All Blacks two weeks ago, they conceded 12 line breaks, then in the two Tests in the summer in New Zealand, those figures were 17 and 12 again — so in four Tests against quality opposition that’s 58 line breaks conceded. In comparison, England made 25, so teams are making more than double England’s number of line breaks.’

On the face of it, the defence hasn’t actually regressed that starkly, if it all. Is it a conditioning issue? I believe there’s some bloke called Alex who’s left. Has El-Abd only had time to tinker with the front line and not the scramble/sweep in behind? Is it just a Sleightholme issue with a newish player in probably the most difficult position in the system? Is it the players not going that extra hard for a head coach who seems to have lost his way? Is it all of the above.
As for our line break numbers. Is it not enough wiggling on the pitch and too much Wiggler off the pitch?

The facts (statistics) point to a team not prepared properly. Blame defensive plans, coaching changes, individual errors or whatever. I see tactical shortcomings ahead of players' lack of physical conditioning - players at fitness levels for first tier rugby should be comfortable for 80 minutes, surely?

My spectator's view suggests a lack of faith in the system. That might go further to diminishing respect for SB but reports in the press suggest the players are happier campers than in the previous era.

My suspicion is the worst-case scenario - that Borthwick is out of his depth at the very top level. I want to be wrong about that. My fear may have a degree of prejudice linked to him never quite being top international standard as a player. I know the best players are not necessarily the best coaches etc. but there may be a link in terms of a lack of flair for the game. I see a coach lacking in innovation who gets the best results by limiting the game style. Maybe one thought about how good he is would be to imagine how many countries would want him as head coach if he became available. Few, if any, I'd guess.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m not convinced the players are happier. That may be the narrative but I don’t think it is truly the case. More so now Aled has gone. He was hugely popular with the players!

Spreadsheet Bastard is a stats based coach. Salads don’t win scrums and spreadsheets don’t win matches!

Watching Ireland vs Argentina last night and both are light years ahead of us with ball in hand. That said we can’t really expect Wigglesworth to be a world class international attack coach when he simply isn’t. He’s learning on the job, and not really showing much from that learning.

Slow Brain himself has put no stamp on this team. There’s nothing to say it’s his team other than we’re a bit dull and ineffective.

[Puja]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Sam Peters on Twitter:

“Hearing some concerning noises about life inside Steve Borthwick’s England camp. “Eddie Jones just without the humour”, one source told me. Now that really is grim.”


It’s going to start coming out!

[Epaminondas Pules]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

True. I mean Felix Jones and Aled Walters made a really positive impact……

[Oakboy]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week!
Puja

Not from choice, Puja. We react to what we see and the scoreboard.

[jngf]

On the boks side, full respect to Kwagga Smith I suspect he must be a very tough customer to get into a boks back row when he’s not the biggest of payers ( shades of Jean Pierre Rives and Andy Robsinson? )

[fivepointer]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

I'm afraid the Australia performance and result have undermined the progress that was made in the NZ tests. Difficult to ignore such an obviously sub standard effort so questions around the coaches and the set up are inevitable.
I'm prepared to cut the coaches some slack. They are an inexperienced group and its not as if they're working with a glut of real high end talent.
But they have to show that the team is improving.
They have that chance today. I think we're capable of putting in a big effort and i expect to see a significant upturn from last week.
If we dont, i'll be inching closer to board the get SB out bandwagon.

[Mellsblue]

The NZ result wasn’t all that. If a couple of their many offloads after line breaks went to hand it would’ve been ugly.

[Mikey Brown]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

Yeah it really is baffling. We’re rich and have loads of players so why don’t we simply be bigger, fitter, stronger, smarter and more talented than everyone else?

[Banquo]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

Yeah it really is baffling. We’re rich and have loads of players so why don’t we simply be bigger, fitter, stronger, smarter and more talented than everyone else?

Not sure anyone is actually making those points, just asking for a bit more competence in say defence?

[Mikey Brown]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

Yeah it really is baffling. We’re rich and have loads of players so why don’t we simply be bigger, fitter, stronger, smarter and more talented than everyone else?

Not sure anyone is actually making those points, just asking for a bit more competence in say defence?

Sure, a bit (a lot) more defensive competence, on top of being poor in attack, having no identity, having bad, unhappy, unfit players and coaches that are completely clueless and out of their depth.

[Banquo]

Yeah it really is baffling. We’re rich and have loads of players so why don’t we simply be bigger, fitter, stronger, smarter and more talented than everyone else?

Not sure anyone is actually making those points, just asking for a bit more competence in say defence?

Sure, a bit (a lot) more defensive competence, on top of being poor in attack, having no identity, having bad, unhappy, unfit players and coaches that are completely clueless and out of their depth.

even that is quite away from being.... bigger, fitter, stronger, smarter and more talented than everyone else? As usual its possible to want to be better without saying we ought to be the best. You seem to be simultaneously saying we aren't very good, yet decrying those who also say it.

[Danno]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

I think it's fair though. We've narrowly beaten Ireland, got beaten by a point in a semi against a misfiring team, and that is literally the only accomplishment we can point to. Everything else has been dire, dour and despairing. Give us a bench that inspires joy or at least hope ffs

[paddy no 11]

Isn't this usually the type of match that ye (over) perform for? If ye've enough lumps to combat the bomb squad it'll be very close

[Danno]

Isn't this usually the type of match that ye (over) perform for? If ye've enough lumps to combat the bomb squad it'll be very close

See our bench and the utter disrespect of a South Africa 5:3 bench. They don't give a shit about our pack

[Mr Mwenda]

Isn't this usually the type of match that ye (over) perform for? If ye've enough lumps to combat the bomb squad it'll be very close

See our bench and the utter disrespect of a South Africa 5:3 bench. They don't give a shit about our pack

Perfect time to get into them and fuck 'em up.

[Danno]

Isn't this usually the type of match that ye (over) perform for? If ye've enough lumps to combat the bomb squad it'll be very close

See our bench and the utter disrespect of a South Africa 5:3 bench. They don't give a shit about our pack

Perfect time to get into them and fuck 'em up.

THAT'S the attitude I want to see

[Captainhaircut]

chat around borthwicks job. I tell you who 100% does need the sack- whichever clown thought that the best way to start an autumn internationals was to play NZ first (off the back of NZ x 2 away from home). Start with Japan and ease into it.

Come to think of it- isn’t it great that the international windows favour southern hemisphere so much. Home matches are played when the side hasn’t been together for months and the SH sides have been together solidly for an age. Away matches are played when we haven’t been together for months and at the end of our season when we’re knackered.

Add in some law variations and both games so far being referred by someone from the southern hemisphere and advantage really is all with them this autumn…

[Puja]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

I think it's fair though. We've narrowly beaten Ireland, got beaten by a point in a semi against a misfiring team, and that is literally the only accomplishment we can point to. Everything else has been dire, dour and despairing. Give us a bench that inspires joy or at least hope ffs

I mean, I don't particularly want to be defending them, cause we have lost the last 5 big games, but people are building an echo like we've been getting dicked by all and sundry, and bewailing our fate as a hopeless team (that apparently has no attack at all, despite scoring 5 tries last week!).

I don't want to be defending them. They need to win a fucking game before I'll do that. But I'm not sure going full Private Fraser is the appropriate response either.

Puja

[Stom]

chat around borthwicks job. I tell you who 100% does need the sack- whichever clown thought that the best way to start an autumn internationals was to play NZ first (off the back of NZ x 2 away from home). Start with Japan and ease into it.

Come to think of it- isn’t it great that the international windows favour southern hemisphere so much. Home matches are played when the side hasn’t been together for months and the SH sides have been together solidly for an age. Away matches are played when we haven’t been together for months and at the end of our season when we’re knackered.

Add in some law variations and both games so far being referred by someone from the southern hemisphere and advantage really is all with them this autumn…

The whole calendar favors the southern teams…

[Epaminondas Pules]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

I think it's fair though. We've narrowly beaten Ireland, got beaten by a point in a semi against a misfiring team, and that is literally the only accomplishment we can point to. Everything else has been dire, dour and despairing. Give us a bench that inspires joy or at least hope ffs

I mean, I don't particularly want to be defending them, cause we have lost the last 5 big games, but people are building an echo like we've been getting dicked by all and sundry, and bewailing our fate as a hopeless team (that apparently has no attack at all, despite scoring 5 tries last week!).

I don't want to be defending them. They need to win a fucking game before I'll do that. But I'm not sure going full Private Fraser is the appropriate response either.

Puja

One could argue we’re giving them too much credit off the back of a half decent game against Ireland and being plucky against France. Other than that we’ve been pap.

[Banquo]

pre match atmosphere good

[Mellsblue]

Wow. You lot really are a miserable bunch of sods this week! The pendulum has swung so much across to despair and to England (and the coaches) being irredeemably shite that it makes me want to defend them, just so the balance swings somewhere further back towards where reality is.

Puja

I think it's fair though. We've narrowly beaten Ireland, got beaten by a point in a semi against a misfiring team, and that is literally the only accomplishment we can point to. Everything else has been dire, dour and despairing. Give us a bench that inspires joy or at least hope ffs

I mean, I don't particularly want to be defending them, cause we have lost the last 5 big games, but people are building an echo like we've been getting dicked by all and sundry, and bewailing our fate as a hopeless team (that apparently has no attack at all, despite scoring 5 tries last week!).

I don't want to be defending them. They need to win a fucking game before I'll do that. But I'm not sure going full Private Fraser is the appropriate response either.

Puja

Look back through the results. The World Cup we all know about and can perhaps excuse given what Serial Bumnotes inherited and how much time he had. Since the RWC weve beaten Italy by 3pts, Wales by 2pts, lost to Scotland by 9pts, caught Ireland by surprise, lost to France and we all know the rest. So, we’re saying that we’re happy with a plucky underdog win, scraping wins against the two worst teams in the 6N, one of which is on an historic losing streak, beating a team with a student at 15 and losing everything else. On top of that mediocrity, we’ve lost our two truly proven test class coaches and promoted Wigglesworth. At least we’re rich.