New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Danno]

When Wasps went under it looked as though Atkinson was their preferred 10 although I may be misremembering that.

I think you're right, Umaga was playing FB as Charlie was coming through at 10 if memory serves (it probably doesn't serve)

[Banquo]

When Wasps went under it looked as though Atkinson was their preferred 10 although I may be misremembering that.

I think you're right, Umaga was playing FB as Charlie was coming through at 10 if memory serves (it probably doesn't serve)

He was, having been pretty shaky at 10, and iirc had a couple of mares at 15, including a red card. Went downhill fast.

[Puja]

Moving this conversation here, cause I want to have it where it won't be swamped by the England tour stuff.

Incidentally someone on the Tigers offy says they asked Ilione about where he thinks his position will be and he said he's put on some extra weight to help with his carrying and to allow him play at 8 as well as 7.

He looks decent in throwing that weight about and I would **love** him to play more at 8 next season. That's where I first saw him back when he was in the U20s and it does feel like his natural position.

Puja

[Banquo]

Moving this conversation here, cause I want to have it where it won't be swamped by the England tour stuff.

Incidentally someone on the Tigers offy says they asked Ilione about where he thinks his position will be and he said he's put on some extra weight to help with his carrying and to allow him play at 8 as well as 7.

He looks decent in throwing that weight about and I would **love** him to play more at 8 next season. That's where I first saw him back when he was in the U20s and it does feel like his natural position.

Puja

what's his handling like?

[FKAS]

Moving this conversation here, cause I want to have it where it won't be swamped by the England tour stuff.

Incidentally someone on the Tigers offy says they asked Ilione about where he thinks his position will be and he said he's put on some extra weight to help with his carrying and to allow him play at 8 as well as 7.

He looks decent in throwing that weight about and I would **love** him to play more at 8 next season. That's where I first saw him back when he was in the U20s and it does feel like his natural position.

Puja

what's his handling like?

Solid but nothing special. Does the basics but not seen any one handed offloads or big passing to date.

Having an 8 that's capable of the physical stuff but a genuine threat at the breakdown would be very beneficial to Tigers. Would need a substantial step up on ability to see off Tom Willis or get the bench impact role from Pollock/Earl.

[Which Tyler]

If Marcus can learn from Russell, and transform himself from a glass canon into a genuine test-match threat; then he'll have an amazing future in the game.
If...
If not, he'll end up as one of rugby history's many "what could have been"s

[FKAS]

If Marcus can learn from Russell, and transform himself from a glass canon into a genuine test-match threat; then he'll have an amazing future in the game.
If...
If not, he'll end up as one of rugby history's many "what could have been"s

Yeah Danny Cipriani MK2 has a great chance on this Lions tour to learn and develop. Given how mediocre form this season he was pretty lucky to go over Tom Jordan in the utility back role.

[Puja]

If Marcus can learn from Russell, and transform himself from a glass canon into a genuine test-match threat; then he'll have an amazing future in the game.
If...
If not, he'll end up as one of rugby history's many "what could have been"s

One of the reasons why I don't care for the, "Oh, I wish the England players didn't go on the jamboree," griping. Both Smiths should be learning from training and competing against Russell and I hesitate to think what an eager and natural sponge like Pollock will be able to gain from the experience.

Puja

[Captainhaircut]

If Marcus can learn from Russell, and transform himself from a glass canon into a genuine test-match threat; then he'll have an amazing future in the game.
If...
If not, he'll end up as one of rugby history's many "what could have been"s

One of the reasons why I don't care for the, "Oh, I wish the England players didn't go on the jamboree," griping. Both Smiths should be learning from training and competing against Russell and I hesitate to think what an eager and natural sponge like Pollock will be able to gain from the experience.

Puja

They would learn nothing from George Ford in Argentina then? And that learning within our attacking system wouldn’t be more important than shadowing Finn Russell?

Pollock would learn nothing on full strength England tour surrounded by Curry x 2, Underhill, Willis, Itoje, Chessum etc?

All this theory that players come back much better players after a lions tour is nonsense. You can count on 1 hand the players that have and mostly due to the exposure to test match rugby anyway. Our players would get better exposure to that playing Argentina than Australia anyway given Argentina are the better side.

Certainly no tangible benefit in terms of players ability or performance has been seen from a collective England side post Lions.

[Which Tyler]

I think players benefit more from having a variety of input into their development
Club+ Country is better than club alone
Club + Country + Lions is better than Club+Country (assuming worthwhile Lions coaching, which hasn't necessarily been the case recently)

It's not like the Smiths are lacking in exposure to BoyGeorge; it's not like Pollock has never trained alongside Twindaloo and Underhill; nor are they going to lack that exposure.

I specifically mentioned Marcus and Finn as they both struggle with the same conceptions of a being a maverick who needs the team set up perfectly for them in order to function - or the glass-canon I referenced. Finn has personally overcome that, to become probably the best FH in world rugby; learned to adapt his game to those around him, learned how to get those around him onto his wave-length, and lift them up. This is stuff Marcus needs to learn; and is REALLY tough to coach.

As for your point on players not coming back better - Fazlet improved hugely with each Lions trip. IMO most come back better players, but with broken bodies, so it takes a bit of time to see the improvement realised.

[Oakboy]

If Marcus can learn from Russell, and transform himself from a glass canon into a genuine test-match threat; then he'll have an amazing future in the game.
If...
If not, he'll end up as one of rugby history's many "what could have been"s

One of the reasons why I don't care for the, "Oh, I wish the England players didn't go on the jamboree," griping. Both Smiths should be learning from training and competing against Russell and I hesitate to think what an eager and natural sponge like Pollock will be able to gain from the experience.

Puja

They would learn nothing from George Ford in Argentina then? And that learning within our attacking system wouldn’t be more important than shadowing Finn Russell?

Pollock would learn nothing on full strength England tour surrounded by Curry x 2, Underhill, Willis, Itoje, Chessum etc?

All this theory that players come back much better players after a lions tour is nonsense. You can count on 1 hand the players that have and mostly due to the exposure to test match rugby anyway. Our players would get better exposure to that playing Argentina than Australia anyway given Argentina are the better side.

Certainly no tangible benefit in terms of players ability or performance has been seen from a collective England side post Lions.

That is my take, especially v Australia. If the concept had real teeth and it was against a combined SH side, maybe the experience would be up a notch. As it is, NZ v England or SA v England has more learning merit. And, if a SH 'Lions' toured here every four years in proper reciprocation, that would add to the mix.

[fivepointer]

Think it depends on the player and the kind of tour they have. Dont think you can say that everyone will be better for the experience but equally you cant say that no one will be improved.
Cant think that many came back a better player after 2005 debacle.

[Puja]

Scrumhead mentioned in another post abiut the Lions having a good rest period - does anyone know what the parameters of that are? Watching the Lions and seeing how enervated Itoje looks after being flogged week-in-week-out, and wondering whether there are any hard and fast rules on it or if it's being left to the "common-sense" of the clubs (no laughing at the back).

Puja

[FKAS]

Scrumhead mentioned in another post abiut the Lions having a good rest period - does anyone know what the parameters of that are? Watching the Lions and seeing how enervated Itoje looks after being flogged week-in-week-out, and wondering whether there are any hard and fast rules on it or if it's being left to the "common-sense" of the clubs (no laughing at the back).

Puja

I think it's supposed to be a 10 week rest period, though the make up of that rest period I think means light duties can be resumed before the end of the 10 weeks. I don't think there's a hard and fast enforcement though so expect Itoje's flogging to recommence as soon as the season starts.

Of course all rest agreements won't effect international games..

[Puja]

https://archive.ph/4I7kY

Saw this article and thought it worth sharing with you lot, then forgot about it until today! Really interesting behind-the-scenes view on England's scrummaging training. Everything that I've seen of Tom Harrison suggests that he was an inspired appointment by Seeks Bigpack, first for Leicester and then to bring him to England - massive call to employ a 32 year old coach with only one season at the top level, but it looks to've been a good one.

Puja

[Danno]

https://archive.ph/4I7kY

Saw this article and thought it worth sharing with you lot, then forgot about it until today! Really interesting behind-the-scenes view on England's scrummaging training. Everything that I've seen of Tom Harrison suggests that he was an inspired appointment by Seeks Bigpack, first for Leicester and then to bring him to England - massive call to employ a 32 year old coach with only one season at the top level, but it looks to've been a good one.

Puja

Great article.

I know he's Marmite, but Squidge produced an excellent video with Harrison maybe a year back. Highlighted a lot of stuff that wouldn't be obvious or perhaps even thought about by fans that had only played outside the front 3/5. He clearly knows his onions.

[Danno]

Here 'tis

[Which Tyler]

Thanks guys, always good to learn more

[Danno]

There's another on the lineout with George Kruis, probably our best LO operator since Geoff Parling



I'm hoping for a maul video at some point because I cannot tell what the hell happens in there even in slow motion

[Puja]

There's another on the lineout with George Kruis, probably our best LO operator since Geoff Parling



I'm hoping for a maul video at some point because I cannot tell what the hell happens in there even in slow motion

Ooh - I'd seen the scrum one, but hadn't seen the lineout one. Thanks!

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Watching the U17s

gods that new England kit is terrible

[Which Tyler]

Centrally contracted 25

LHP: Baxter, Genge
HK: Cowan-Dickie, George
THP: Heyes, Stuart
LK: Chessum, Itoje, Martin
FL: BCurry, TCurry, Earl, Pollock
N8: Willis

SH: Mitchell
FH: Ford, FSmith, MSmith
IC:
OC: Lawrence, Slade
WG: Feyi-Waboso, Freeman, Roebuck
FB: Daly, Furbank

Still no Underhill
Still has Slade

[Scrumhead]

I’m fine with most of it, but Slade? I really hoped we might have turned the page there. Particularly given how positive Borthwick has been about Atkinson.

[Epaminondas Pules]

No Farrell

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m fine with most of it, but Slade? I really hoped we might have turned the page there. Particularly given how positive Borthwick has been about Atkinson.

Probably just too early for Seb or A N Other