England goals for 2017/18 season

[Mikey Brown]

Forgetting about Slade for a minute, I'd happily give Devoto a go at 12 right now.

[Puja]

I wish eastmond had been given more of a chance.

Me too. He definitely deserved better than he got from Burt.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Forgetting about Slade for a minute, I'd happily give Devoto a go at 12 right now.

Me too. Unless he was injured for the Arg tour I'd assume we can rule out any chance of it happening.

[Mr Mwenda]

And one last moan. The mention of his pass against Wales as though it was magical. He is an elite England player. The best of the best who has been playing rugby through all the grades for years. I would be alarmed if he could not make the pass but am slightly more alarmed it is deemed worthy of comment or praise.

Come on! It was a 20m pass, delivered on the run, to the exact position where Daly could take it without ever breaking stride. Yes, in an ideal world, we should expect our 12s to be able to make that pass, but a lot of them couldn't, including both Manu and Te'o.



Puja

The commentary on that video is entertaining!

It's a very good pass, too.

[Beasties]

Forgetting about Slade for a minute, I'd happily give Devoto a go at 12 right now.

+1 Although he's a victim of the Exeter back tombola as much as Slade is, and Hill. And Campagnaro. Not going to Wasps was a mistake imo.

[Oakboy]

Can we debate the merits of Farrell at 12 without taking into account his effect on Ford? I thought Ford looked far more comfortable in Argentina when he was running the game at 10 without having to be subservient to Farrell. IMO, Eddie needs to develop Ford's game in the AIs and then look at the whole picture. Might Ford + Francis/Devoto/Slade be better than Ford/Farrell? Failing that, might Farrell at 10 be better?

On that last point, and taking the thread back to its SH theme, I think Ford's superior natural handling flatters Youngs. It may be a factor in Eddie leaving Farrell at 12.

[Puja]

Forgetting about Slade for a minute, I'd happily give Devoto a go at 12 right now.

+1 Although he's a victim of the Exeter back tombola as much as Slade is, and Hill. And Campagnaro. Not going to Wasps was a mistake imo.

Mind, given that he appears to have won the tombola and is now a Premiership winner, one might posit that he knew what he was doing! The move's worked out pretty well for him - slightly less so for Hill and Slade.

Can we debate the merits of Farrell at 12 without taking into account his effect on Ford? I thought Ford looked far more comfortable in Argentina when he was running the game at 10 without having to be subservient to Farrell. IMO, Eddie needs to develop Ford's game in the AIs and then look at the whole picture. Might Ford + Francis/Devoto/Slade be better than Ford/Farrell? Failing that, might Farrell at 10 be better?

Subservient is a bit strident, I think. Ford's looked good alongside Farrell for England before (Australia tour springing to mind) so I'm not sure that you can draw causation from correlation.

I will be happy to see some more non-Farrell options in the autumn though. I'm still halfway hopeful that Mallinder has been retrofitted with some testicles during the Argentina tour and will start the season with a bang.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Is one good pass the only evidence to hand of Farrells' incisive attacking quality? Against that there are plenty examples of poor passing (particularly from L to R), plenty of missed tackles and brainless bolts out of the line. He has improved, but some of his play last season for England was ordinary to say the least.
Te'o showed enough in his appearances off the bench last season and for the Lions that he deserves an opportunity.

[Banquo]

I wish eastmond had been given more of a chance.

Me too. He definitely deserved better than he got from Burt.

Puja

agreed.

[Banquo]

Bit baffled by the 'mixed' reaction to suggesting we need an upgrade at 9 and 12, which has been a unanimously agreed theme, pretty much; seems 'timing' is the issue, but if not have a look now, then when? In any case Faz is earmarked for a rest during the AI's. And between 'Faz is shyte/utterly without merit (really, does anyone say that)' and 'Faz is a very good 12', lies the truth (and varies from game to game like many players); of course he offers options (which vary in quality of execution, still), but I'm genuinely not convinced he is the best option at 12, just pretty much the only one we have seen under Eddie given full choices. On Youngs, he is hit and miss, and despite 'Youngs watch' still feel he constrains what we do.

I'll stick to my general point that 5 units from the 6N need an upgrade (as soon as feasible, and some have clearly emerged), but grudgingly accept that some don't want to mess with 9 or 12 unless there is a nailed in replacement..... imo, though, if Eddie sticks to his word, its good news that we will see s/o else at 12 (though if Teo and JJ also ruled out, alongside Daly and Watson, that'd be a bit of a false exercise).

As for the line, whatever your opinion is, Eddie knows best.....fair enough, but probably defeats the object of a rugby message board

[Banquo]

Is one good pass the only evidence to hand of Farrells' incisive attacking quality? Against that there are plenty examples of poor passing (particularly from L to R), plenty of missed tackles and brainless bolts out of the line. He has improved, but some of his play last season for England was ordinary to say the least.
Te'o showed enough in his appearances off the bench last season and for the Lions that he deserves an opportunity.

This.

[Puja]

Bit baffled by the 'mixed' reaction to suggesting we need an upgrade at 9 and 12, which has been a unanimously agreed theme, pretty much; seems 'timing' is the issue, but if not have a look now, then when?

Not denying we could do with an upgrade, but denying that there's a solution crying out to be picked. Hopefully some of the options will have a storming start to the AP season but, as things stand, gods help us, Youngs and Farrell are currently our best players there. Maybe not the most promising or the ones with the highest ceiling, but currently the best and, as anyone who saw Alex Gray or Marcel Garvey play can tell you, promising butters no parsnips. Let's wait until someone's actually playing better at 12, rather than potentially playing better, before ditching Fazlet.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Bit baffled by the 'mixed' reaction to suggesting we need an upgrade at 9 and 12, which has been a unanimously agreed theme, pretty much; seems 'timing' is the issue, but if not have a look now, then when? In any case Faz is earmarked for a rest during the AI's. And between 'Faz is shyte/utterly without merit (really, does anyone say that)' and 'Faz is a very good 12', lies the truth (and varies from game to game like many players); of course he offers options (which vary in quality of execution, still), but I'm genuinely not convinced he is the best option at 12, just pretty much the only one we have seen under Eddie given full choices. On Youngs, he is hit and miss, and despite 'Youngs watch' still feel he constrains what we do.

I'll stick to my general point that 5 units from the 6N need an upgrade (as soon as feasible, and some have clearly emerged), but grudgingly accept that some don't want to mess with 9 or 12 unless there is a nailed in replacement..... imo, though, if Eddie sticks to his word, its good news that we will see s/o else at 12 (though if Teo and JJ also ruled out, alongside Daly and Watson, that'd be a bit of a false exercise).

As for the line, whatever your opinion is, Eddie knows best.....fair enough, but probably defeats the object of a rugby message board

Why would JJ be ruled out? He didn't play in the tests, did he?

'Eddie knows best????' Twaddle. How could he possibly manage without our input?

[Banquo]

Bit baffled by the 'mixed' reaction to suggesting we need an upgrade at 9 and 12, which has been a unanimously agreed theme, pretty much; seems 'timing' is the issue, but if not have a look now, then when? In any case Faz is earmarked for a rest during the AI's. And between 'Faz is shyte/utterly without merit (really, does anyone say that)' and 'Faz is a very good 12', lies the truth (and varies from game to game like many players); of course he offers options (which vary in quality of execution, still), but I'm genuinely not convinced he is the best option at 12, just pretty much the only one we have seen under Eddie given full choices. On Youngs, he is hit and miss, and despite 'Youngs watch' still feel he constrains what we do.

I'll stick to my general point that 5 units from the 6N need an upgrade (as soon as feasible, and some have clearly emerged), but grudgingly accept that some don't want to mess with 9 or 12 unless there is a nailed in replacement..... imo, though, if Eddie sticks to his word, its good news that we will see s/o else at 12 (though if Teo and JJ also ruled out, alongside Daly and Watson, that'd be a bit of a false exercise).

As for the line, whatever your opinion is, Eddie knows best.....fair enough, but probably defeats the object of a rugby message board

Why would JJ be ruled out? He didn't play in the tests, did he?

'Eddie knows best????' Twaddle. How could he possibly manage without our input?

was it Tests or just being on tour that ruled folks out? I don't remember.

[Puja]

I believe it is Eddie's discretion depending on how much they played.

Puua

[Scrumhead]

I expect it's case by case.

Even players who did make the test sides but didn't play many minutes like Kruis, Lawes, Te'o or even Sinckler might be in consideration.

Anyone who didn't make the test sides like Marler or Haskell probably wouldn't be ruled-out.

[Banquo]

Bit baffled by the 'mixed' reaction to suggesting we need an upgrade at 9 and 12, which has been a unanimously agreed theme, pretty much; seems 'timing' is the issue, but if not have a look now, then when?

Not denying we could do with an upgrade, but denying that there's a solution crying out to be picked. Hopefully some of the options will have a storming start to the AP season but, as things stand, gods help us, Youngs and Farrell are currently our best players there. Maybe not the most promising or the ones with the highest ceiling, but currently the best and, as anyone who saw Alex Gray or Marcel Garvey play can tell you, promising butters no parsnips. Let's wait until someone's actually playing better at 12, rather than potentially playing better, before ditching Fazlet.

Puja

....how can you tell, unless they play at (9 or) 12 for England? Unless you are talking about club form, in which case Faz doesn't even play 12 for his club .

As I said, I accept your and others view is that unless there is a nailed on solution, leave as is; I just don't agree. After all, there was no obvious solution at 12 and Faz was stuck in there. ...I also don't see why Teo wouldn't be better (if different) there, for example.

[Banquo]

I expect it's case by case.

Even players who did make the test sides but didn't play many minutes like Kruis, Lawes, Te'o or even Sinckler might be in consideration.

Anyone who didn't make the test sides like Marler or Haskell probably wouldn't be ruled-out.

Eddie knows best, and in this case, and in this case, only Eddie knows

[Puja]

Bit baffled by the 'mixed' reaction to suggesting we need an upgrade at 9 and 12, which has been a unanimously agreed theme, pretty much; seems 'timing' is the issue, but if not have a look now, then when?

Not denying we could do with an upgrade, but denying that there's a solution crying out to be picked. Hopefully some of the options will have a storming start to the AP season but, as things stand, gods help us, Youngs and Farrell are currently our best players there. Maybe not the most promising or the ones with the highest ceiling, but currently the best and, as anyone who saw Alex Gray or Marcel Garvey play can tell you, promising butters no parsnips. Let's wait until someone's actually playing better at 12, rather than potentially playing better, before ditching Fazlet.

Puja

....how can you tell, unless they play at (9 or) 12 for England? Unless you are talking about club form, in which case Faz doesn't even play 12 for his club .

As I said, I accept your and others view is that unless there is a nailed on solution, leave as is; I just don't agree. After all, there was no obvious solution at 12 and Faz was stuck in there. ...I also don't see why Teo wouldn't be better (if different) there, for example.

Club form should earn you the right to play for England - we shouldn't be dropping players in because we hope that they'll be better than the incumbent; we should see them being better than their competition for their club. And yes, Farrell doesn't play 12 for Sarries, but he does play well for them. Until one of the challengers starts producing the same quality for their club, they shouldn't be there.

This is, of course, rendered moot by the fact that Fazlet will be rested, so there'll be a change there anyway.

Puja

[Banquo]

Not denying we could do with an upgrade, but denying that there's a solution crying out to be picked. Hopefully some of the options will have a storming start to the AP season but, as things stand, gods help us, Youngs and Farrell are currently our best players there. Maybe not the most promising or the ones with the highest ceiling, but currently the best and, as anyone who saw Alex Gray or Marcel Garvey play can tell you, promising butters no parsnips. Let's wait until someone's actually playing better at 12, rather than potentially playing better, before ditching Fazlet.

Puja

....how can you tell, unless they play at (9 or) 12 for England? Unless you are talking about club form, in which case Faz doesn't even play 12 for his club .

As I said, I accept your and others view is that unless there is a nailed on solution, leave as is; I just don't agree. After all, there was no obvious solution at 12 and Faz was stuck in there. ...I also don't see why Teo wouldn't be better (if different) there, for example.

Club form should earn you the right to play for England - we shouldn't be dropping players in because we hope that they'll be better than the incumbent; we should see them being better than their competition for their club. And yes, Farrell doesn't play 12 for Sarries, but he does play well for them. Until one of the challengers starts producing the same quality for their club, they shouldn't be there.

This is, of course, rendered moot by the fact that Fazlet will be rested, so there'll be a change there anyway.

Puja

well I did point that out earlier!

And yes on club form. Was Youngs the form EQP scrum half last season, was Faz the form 12? Of course they start ahead as incumbents/international experience....nowhere am I suggesting picking on hope (more like desperation tbh).

I think we all agree on upgrades being needed, just differ in approach!

[Which Tyler]

If Te'o is available for the AIs them he's earned the right to have a shot at the 12 shirt.
If not, then I'd like to see a premiership winning promising young EQP specialist 12 given a shot. I suspect though that Eddie saw something about Ollie that he didn't like during the 6N 2016 whilst he was being screwed around at club level and from reports (way after the event) wasn't in the best of places psychologically.

[Mellsblue]

'Eddie knows best????' Twaddle. How could he possibly manage without our input?

This.

[Peat]

'Eddie knows best????' Twaddle. How could he possibly manage without our input?

This.

Quite well it seems. He even stopped phoning me after the Australia tour.